Association: a pure devotee can associate with anyone

Once I was giving Prabhupada a message, and he had just woken up. He told me that he had just had a dream. He dreamt there was a big kirtana party. He said, "Gradually as the chanting was going on, the non-chanters, the non-devotees were gradually coming and joining the chanters (the devotees)." I asked Prabhupada if any of the chanters had become non-chanters. If any of the devotees go and join the non-devotees. He said, "How can that be possible? Their name is already written in Krishna's book for going back home, back to godhead." 

Whatever you hear, that is what will come out naturally when you speak. So if you make a habit of hearing more and more about Krishna, what comes out will also be about Krishna.

[We are told] we should not associate with worldly minded persons who are not in Krishna consciousness. So what do we do with this? We have to associate. You have family members who are not Krishna conscious. If you have a job, there are so many people who are not Krishna conscious - practically almost all the people in the world - but that doesn't mean we have nothing to do with them. This depends on how advanced you are.

A pure devotee can associate with anyone, and just by their influence the person becomes favorable to Krishna. I have seen my god-brother Kesava Bharati. He calls to arrange to make his travel arrangements, and through the course of the phone call he somehow makes them so favorable, and sometimes even starts preaching about Krishna. If we are very friendly with everyone, that will give a good influence to everyone.

The point is that you should associate with someone else who is not a devotee if you can influence them in a nice way. That may not even be that you can talk about Krishna. You can just be nice, and persuade them in good qualities.

If you love your guru, chant nice rounds

Excerpts from an interview with Tamal Krishna Goswami (New Govardhana, Australia, 10.10.1983)

"Without developing a spirit of service, chanting the holy name is in vain. Real devotion can be cultivated only when one receives the blessings of an unalloyed devotee. . . . Therefore to give up namaparadha one must first give up sadhu-ninda, or finding faults with the devotees.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

If you love your guru, chant nice rounds.

There are different ways you can chant sixteen rounds. You can chant very intensely; you can actually see if it is possible to chant without letting your mind deviate once in sixteen rounds. Let's see someone undergo that test.

Someone may get an order, an instruction, or even a general instruction to the devotees. Are you going to take it? Are you going to take it seriously, to heart, as your life and soul, or are you going to take it lightly?

Each of us should know that every morning when you chant your rounds, it is the most intimate service that you are offering to your spiritual master. It is the actual service that he asked of you at the time when you were initiated.

This chanting of Hare Krsna is the basis on which your spiritual master has accepted you as his disciple. You should remember when you chant every morning, "I am offering this very intimate service to my spiritual master."

My godbrother Visnujana used to sit and chant with a blown-up picture of Srila Prabhupada's ear. So, we are chanting for our spiritual master's pleasure.

Everything we are doing is for our spiritual master's pleasure.

Tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam - the only price is hankering, "I want You." There is no other necessity but the heart's hankering: hankering for Him, hankering for His service. That should be our mood when we chant our rounds.

Just hear the sound vibration--that's the best chanting of all. There are different levels of recommendations, but you will see as you advance that the best chanting is when you simply hear the holy name, which is Krsna. And that is service to Krsna.

In Hari-nama-cintamani it is said that inattentive chanting leads to all the other of the ten offenses.

Chant sixteen rounds with full concentration, preferably sitting in one place, fully absorbed in hearing the sound vibration. Thus very quickly you will get krsna-prema and become a strong devotee. Take this to heart.

Our morning program [chanting] is like an inoculation to protect ourselves when associating with diseased persons throughout the day.

Service begins with hearing and chanting. It begins with hearing and chanting and ends with hearing and chanting. Hearing and chanting go on in the beginning, and they go on in the liberated stage. In the spiritual world the devotees are expert in hearing and chanting Krsna's glories. That is always there.

 

Compassion: there is no limit to Lord Nityananda’s mercy

 Tamala Krishna Maharaja, "My Life With Srila Prabhupada", Spiritual Sky Productions, 2004 (Video interview transcription, 32:52 – 38:34 mins.)

Re. “another fatal blunder,” allowing the contract for Hare Krishna Land, Juhu Bombay to lapse (1972).

‘So Prabhupada, I think, was in Pune, and I called him up to tell him the ‘good news.’ So I said, "Srila Prabhupada, I wanted to call you to tell you...” He said, “What happened? Did everything go through?” I said, “No, Srila Prabhupada, we cancelled the contract.” All I heard was, “Click.” Prabhupada just hung the phone up. 

Prabhupada came back, and then for the next two months, Prabhupada would call in one [Life] Member after the other and parade me in, and he’d say, “This foolish boy.” He would show them the contract and say, “He cancelled the contract! He cancelled the contract!”

This was such a huge blunder. So the thing I feel about this - and there were more such blunders that went on in time -  is that the wonderful quality of Prabhupada through all of these [blunders] is that he never gave up on a devotee, or on a disciple. No matter how many mistakes a devotee might make, he wanted to see if the devotee would continue to want to serve Krishna and to serve him.

In that instance, with the cancellation of the contract, Prabhupada did not reject me. He gave me the opportunity to go through a hellish year and a half after that - with Giriraja Maharaja - where we had to go all the time into Bombay, sitting in the lawyers’ chambers and just trying to rectify the situation.

So it’s a symptom of Srila Prabhupada that he never gave up on a devotee. He said about Krishna that, “When you chant Hare Krishna even one time sincerely, Krishna will never leave you alone.” So I feel, in the same way, that Prabhupada never leaves you alone.

Even though you may make many mistakes in his service, he still does not reject you. But he accepts you just as a father would accept a child, as a parent accepts a child. He expects that there may be mistakes. He will chastise you like anything, but he never gives you the sense that He doesn’t love you.

So, despite all the grand mistakes that were made, I never got the sense that Prabhupada loved me less because of them. I always felt encouraged and never felt discouraged, even when these mistakes occurred.’

Prabhupada had a disciple who was driving Giriraja Swami and me around - and we would be going, making Members and collecting money (to build the Vrindavana Temple) in Bombay. So after a while, this devotee somehow got it in his mind that he should go off on his own, and leave and make his own way – spiritually – in life.  He took up living on Juhu beach with one bogi yogi, with the intention of learning the art of passing a coin in one ear and out the other ear.

So before he had done this, he was already canvassing our Members, collecting on his own. So I had approached Prabhupada that, “Srila Prabhupada, we have to write something to our members to warn them about this person.” So Prabhupada was a little hesitant to do that. He was not ready to give up on this devotee.

But when this devotee finally started to live with that bogi yogi I said, “Prabhupada, now it’s reached the limit. This person is on the beach, living with a bogus yogi, trying to learn how to pass a coin from one ear out the other.” So I said that, “Now, it’s the end, it’s finished!” And Prabhupada looked at me and he said, “You do not know about Lord Nityananda’s mercy?” I said, “Why, Srila Prabhupada?” He said because “There is no end to Lord Nityananda’s forgiveness.”

And later on, sure enough, that devotee came back. Again, Prabhupada tried to help him; he gave this devotee sannyasa even. And the person eventually left. I met him about a year ago, and he’s still on a spiritual path of some type.

But Prabhupada was so clear. He looked at me and he said, “There is no limit to Lord Nityananda’s mercy and compassion.” So Srila Prabhupada is the manifest representative of Lord Nityananda Prabhu, and his forgiveness is like that. So I think that both in terms of both our dealing with our own short-comings and in terms of dealing with each other, we have to always remember that Prabhupada never rejected a devotee.

Q&A on management and authority in ISKCON (2-3.6.1993, Christchurch, New Zealand)

PART 1 (2.6.1993)

Disciple 1: [Disciples] probably surrender more to the spiritual master than they would to any other person; they go out of their way to do things for the spiritual master…

TKG: That's why the spiritual master should make very heavy demands on them (inaudible), not water down the instruction, but make very heavy demands. Since the disciple is more surrendered to the guru than anyone else, it's better that the guru makes the greatest demands, more than anyone else would make. Because others are not getting the respect from that disciple, they have to be a little careful in what they say. The guru should demand the most from the disciple on behalf of Krishna.

Disciple 1: I was going to ask, often it can be seen that the disciple is feeling that the spiritual master really is their ever-well-wisher and is really concerned for them. Often in relationships with the authorities, that same reciprocation isn't there. [I’m] asking how to overcome that?

TKG: I want to make a comment…This is a mistaken conception, that ‘I am surrendered to my guru but not to others.’ I think that the spiritual master comes to us through the authority of the temple, and the proof is abundant in all of Srila Prabhupada's dealings. You read the letters of Srila Prabhupada. You'll see that, by and large, almost all the letters are written to a few individuals.

Now, Prabhupada had 5-10,000 disciples, but there's no question: there are not 5-10,000 people written to in letters. There are only a few. So, what about all those other persons? Prabhupada taught those persons that they should accept his instructions coming through the temple president and authorities. So, you were supposed to surrender to the temple president's authority because he was representing the spiritual master.

Not that you surrender to the guru, but not to the temple president or other authorities. Then you don't surrender to the guru, because the guru hardly ever comes around physically. Just like now, Srila Prabhupada has disappeared physically, so how do we get his instruction? The spiritual master instructs through so many senior persons. The spiritual master continues to give his association and instructions through senior persons. That doesn't mean he doesn't give [instruction] through his books. In Prabhupada’s case, we have his books, tapes, and so many things.

But I personally find the books do not necessarily answer your very specific, individual needs. In other words, each person's life is so particular. How to apply the instructions of the books has to be told. When Prabhupada was present, if you had a direct connection with him, then he would do that. Or else the temple president would do that. So now that Prabhupada is not present, how do Prabhupada’s disciples get that? So, I personally get it through my god brothers. That's how I get it. And those who are the disciples of Prabhupada’s disciples? There's a system.

I'm not under a temple president. If I were, I’d get it through the temple president, and I would get it through my god brothers. So, we should get the application of the instruction through the temple president. It doesn't matter that, because you have your spiritual master physically present, now you don't have to deal with the temple president. You can do that, but then don't delude yourself into thinking that you're still following Prabhupada.

Just admit that ‘Actually I've lost faith in Prabhupada, or I never had faith in Prabhupada because I really don't know who Prabhupada is, and now I'm making my own movement.’ Just admit that. Instead of trying to water down or destroy what is ISKCON or what Prabhupada’s legacy is, don't change the system. Just make your own system and admit it. ‘I have made my own system,’ and give the society a new name. You register an organisation and let it be very clear what it is, instead of watering down this whole system.

There's a temple president, and he has authority. The authority of the gurus goes through the temple president, not directly to the disciples. Prabhupada did not directly instruct disciples. He did it through the GBC and temple presidents, and that system should be maintained by all ISKCON gurus today. If they don’t, they're going to break everything. The whole structure will be broken, and there will be chaos: anarchy. Everybody will then become independent, and they will all decide, ‘Now we're going to do this, we're going to do this, I want to do this, I want to do that.’

That's not the way Prabhupada set up this movement. So, you just admit, ‘I've left the movement. Now I'm a varnasrami.’ Just say it, ‘I'm a member of varnasrama. I follow varnasrama dharma, not ISKCON.’ Then you'll see how the movement will be checked in its progress.

That's fine. ISKCON will preach to you varnasramis because this movement works on the principle of authority. It is set up that way by Srila Prabhupada. It's very clear from all the letters, and it has not changed.

The reason it changed is because some leaders proved incapable. Gurus fell down, temple presidents, GBC, fell down. So, people say ‘I don't have any more faith, I'm going to be my own guru, my own temple president, my own leader. I don't listen to anyone. But actually, that's not the way it's supposed to be.

[To disciple 1] You may not be making this point, but I'm commenting that when you say that we're more surrendered to our guru than we are to the temple authorities, I don't agree. At least I don't want my disciples to be in that mentality. If anybody else wants their disciples to be that way, that's their right.

I don't want that. I want my disciples to see that when the temple president tells them something, the guru is speaking through the temple president. They should see the guru in the words of the temple president. Unless this system is applied, our movement will lose its ability to function. Because it's not being applied, there's so much confusion now.

It was like that. Ask people that during Prabhupada’s time whether it was like that. You can ask. When it wasn't like that, Prabhupada would correct the temple president. It's not that sometimes the temple president may not have deviated. Then Prabhupada would correct them, but he wouldn't violate the principle. I don't say that the temple president may always accurately repeat what the guru said; then it will be corrected. But Prabhupada never changed the principle. Because then there's no authority.

Then you say, ‘I'm surrendered to my guru more than anyone else.’ What is the proof of it? ‘It's in my heart.’ Prove it by action. What's in your heart should come out in action, practical action. We should maintain the systems that Prabhupada set up. This movement is not just content, it's also form. Prabhupada spent so much time establishing the temples, the deities, the structure of the GBC, the structure of the temple management, so much time.

He put aside his writing, which was the most important work, to spend more time on all these other things because he knew that if these other things were not there, then the people would not be able to get the full benefit of what he had written.

This movement is meant to create a structure by which you can follow the teachings of the books.

If the structure of the movement changes, it will be very hard to fully surrender. That's what's happening. People are not fully surrendered. People have far more scope now to do whatever they want than they did in the old days. You can say that's progress, well, let's judge it by the advancement. If you're going to say it's progress, let's see if the movement is progressing, or let's see if the individual is actually becoming more detached from sense enjoyment. I don't see that when people have that freedom that they actually become better. At least I don't want that freedom personally. I don't find that it helps me. No, I want to be tightly under the control of my god brothers, because I have full faith that they represent Prabhupada. I have full faith in them. Not necessarily all of them, but some of them.

Just like if someone said, ‘I don't have faith in this temple president.’ What would Prabhupada say? ‘Okay, where do you want to go? The person would say, ‘I want to go there.’ ‘So, very good, go and work with that person.’ Then they'd write back, ‘I don't have faith in this person either.’ Then Prabhupada would say, ‘You have a problem. Now it's not the temple president, it's you who has the problem.’ Then he would say, ‘Do whatever you want, what can be done?’

Certainly, at some point, you can say, ‘Then do whatever you want, what can be done?’ A woman got divorced, and she wanted to marry again, but Prabhupada didn't like that. So, we wrote to Srila Prabhupada ‘What should we do?’ He said, ‘What can be done?’ That was his way of saying ‘I don't approve, but what can be done? We cannot force people.’ But we're not going to change the preaching and the philosophy to suit the material desires of individuals. We can't do that. Then everything will be lost

Prabhupada said ‘If I drop the four regulative principles, we can really have a lot of people.’ So, if we just let anything go on, whatever we want, then maybe more people will come. But what will be accomplished? Will it be Krishna consciousness?

[To disciple 1] What was your final point?

Disciple 1: I was saying that in the past, [devotees] might have given so much to the society. They might have given so many assets – this, that, and the other - and then there's been some reverse. Their husband might have left them with a young family, or they’ve become sick, or something…

TKG: What should we do?

Disciple 1: The society might have seen them as a burden, might not have provided for them, and they might have had to turn to the government for some benefits.

TKG: …and, therefore?

Disciple 1: How do you see that? What should we…

TKG: We should try to always respect and appreciate the service that anyone has done in the past. We don't ever disrespect someone, but we object to changing the philosophy to accommodate sense gratification. ‘Well, I used to be fired up, but I just don't feel as fired up now. So now the new philosophy should be that, therefore our movement should be adjusted to accommodate me.’

We can give all respect, appreciation, and encouragement, but why should we adjust the movement? The movement was set up by Prabhupada. Why do we have to adjust it now? He's the Founder-Acarya. He founded this movement the way he wanted it. If people don't like it, then they can found their own movement. Why do they have to change this movement? This is Prabhupada’s movement.

GBC means watchdog, and we bark when someone gets too close. Prabhupada told me, ‘Your business is that you stand outside the door of this house and when anybody tries to change anything, start barking.’ So that's what I do wherever I go. That's the order I got from Prabhupada. People don't like barking dogs. They want a dog that wags its tail, licks you. What is the use of that? Everybody knows if you have a guard dog that's like that, he can't protect the master at all. If the dog recognises…he knows who should be allowed, and who you don't bark to. But if someone is not coming in the right way, then he barks.

So, if you think that this is too hard line, I think that it's not too hard line because the whole disciplic succession - Krishna said - was lost on account of this point. Therefore, Krishna said, ‘I have to teach this again to Arjuna because everything got lost.’ So, what else are we supposed to do except preserve the legacy that Prabhupada gave us?

Everyone can be accommodated in the house that Prabhupada built. But there are different rooms. Everybody doesn't get accommodated in the same room. There are many rooms. So, let's at least acknowledge that there are many rooms, and those who are in one room should acknowledge that ‘I'm in one room and you're in another room.’ If there's a difference in the rooms, we can admit to that.

We're not a classless society. We don't preach classless society. That's why I said if someone is more renounced, or detached, or advanced, the less detached or renounced or advanced devotee should show that person respect and pray, ‘Please bless me so that I can also develop.’ Not that you become envious, or bewildered, or ignorant and think ‘It's all the same. I don't see any difference.’

That kind of thing goes on today: classless society. People have become so disrespectful, distrustful, and disappointed. But in disappointment, if you lose your respect, what will happen?

Disciple 1: Sometimes, authorities become bewildered…

TKG: Sometimes, authorities become bewildered, okay.

Disciple 1: (inaudible).

TKG: But generally, they don't become bewildered. Generally, the authorities are less likely to become bewildered than the followers of the authorities. So, in terms of percentage, the authorities are less bewildered. So, we think that ‘Since the authorities may become bewildered, I have to be my own authority.’ But we have a bigger chance of becoming bewildered than the authority. Why is someone an authority? He's authorised. If there's a check and balance system, if the authority becomes bewildered, the person over him will correct them.

Anarchy means where you lose faith in authority, and you take authority into your own hands. That's called anarchy. Now I don't think that's the system that we recommend. An anarchist thinks like this ‘I want to do the following thing.’ Well, who authorised you to do this thing? That's the next question that the law-abiding people should ask. ‘Well, who authorised this? Did the GBC authorise this?’ ‘Well, no, Prabhupada’s books authorised it.’ ‘But the GBC didn't authorise it?’ ‘No Prabhupada’s books authorised it.’ But did the GBC confirm that you're understanding correctly what Prabhupada’s books say, and that it fits in with the plan right now that should be done? ‘Well, I don't know about that.’ That means you don't accept the GBC.

Now, what did Prabhupada say? He said in the direction of management that the GBC are my direct representatives, and, in my absence, they will be the executives of my will. He taught us to work under a GBC, under a temple president structure. So now somehow people think, ‘Oh we don't need that system. It doesn't work anyway. The GBCs are in maya, temple presidents are in maya. We'll create our own system.’

Watch the fun, that's all I can say. Watch the fun as it happens, and we'll see how much Krishna consciousness spreads also. Book distribution will stop, prasadam distribution will stop, Harinama Sankirtana will stop, and then everybody will all fight with each other anyway.

But in the meantime, so many people will become confused, bewildered and lost.

We should have everything we do authorised. It should be authorised by someone. Who's the authority? Just like in China, when you meet someone, they don't ask you what your name is, they ask you, ‘What unit do you work for?’ In China, everybody has a unit, an identity through a working unit; it's the government company. They don't care who you are. They want to know who you work for. ‘Who is your authority?’ That's all they ask first, ‘Who's your authority?’ When you're not under authority, there's big trouble. Anyone who's not got a unit is in big trouble, very big trouble.

So actually, the system is the first thing when you meet someone, it's supposed to be my name is so-and-so, the son of such-and-such. You look in India at all identities, how did the person identify? In fact, the name was like that. Isn't it? How does it work? Do you know that system?

Disciple 2: It’s usually the father's name…

TKG: It's not just a family name.

Disciple 2: the father's name, his first name…

TKG: Say it again, please?

Disciple 2: Well, just like my name, Ashok. My father's name is Jaya Rama.

TKG: What was your father's name?

Disciple 2: Jaya Rama.

TKG: Okay, Jaya Rama.

Disciple 2: Ashok Jaya Rama Patel. Patel is a particular part of Gujarat where people live.

TKG: So, you took the father's name, it comes in your name also, so that when they identify the son, they immediately identify him in terms of his father.  

Similarly, when you identify the disciple, you should identify in terms of the guru. Then in ISKCON also, ‘What temple do you come from? What's your unit?’ Because you're supposed to be authorised. That is the way Prabhupada created this movement. It's only because people fell away, gurus fell away, the people lost their faith, and now everybody is just going berserk. Not everybody, but a few people.

Anyway, I pray that we could control our minds, and our desires, and our senses, and just learn to be nice, submissive, humble, meek, and all the nice qualities, and allow ourselves to have persons over us. Take shelter. That's my prayer to everybody.

 

PART 2 (3.6.1993)

Disciple 3: Guru Maharaja, I'm trying to understand, just like it says in the Bhagavatam that you can't move your arm without the demigods' sanctioning; that you can't breathe, you can't do so many different things. It seems as though it's a prerequisite for surrender that you understand that you are controlled…

TKG: Yes. This is a very good question. You always ask very good questions. He does ask very good questions. I always see that.

So, this question is very good, and there's a very easy solution to this, which is that one should place oneself firmly under the control of the guru. And even better, under the control of the temple president. This is such a good point that we are so completely controlled. So, the best way to become controlled is to get immediate control. You see long distance control leaves a lot of slack, but close-up control is much more control. So, the best thing is that everybody should work under the temple president. That control will then be felt - and also, under the guru. One should feel oneself to be controlled by one's guru and the temple president. So that's really practical, I think. It's such a simple point. Srila Prabhupada actually set it up this way.

You know, in other religions, they have this also. The Buddhists - I forget what they call their organisation - but it's written right into their scripture that the organisation itself is part of the spiritual process: that fealty, loyalty, and discipline within the organisation are themselves part of the actual process. The Catholic Church has the same thing. They wrote it right into the scriptures, so to speak.

Prabhupada, being the Founder of ISKCON and the writer of all of these literatures, he actually wrote it into the very process of Krishna consciousness. That's why you'll see statements in Prabhupada’s books like you can't be Krishna conscious outside of ISKCON. It's a very heavy statement, and it really frustrates people who don't want to work within the society. It's a very problematic statement for them, but there's a reason for it. The fact is that unless we do have some immediate authorities over us, the tendency is to think ourselves independent, and for the mind to start speculating, for desires to come out and not be checked, and to justify these desires as being spiritual. But as soon as you have to work with others, and especially under others, then everything becomes scrutinised. If we're actually wanting to please Krishna, why should we be afraid? The fear is that my independence will be taken away from me.

Krishna is supremely independent, and we are all parts and parcels of Krishna, which means we all have a desire to be independent. The solution is that when you become totally dependent on Krishna, then Krishna gives you full independence to do whatever you want, because you've proven your trustworthiness. The problem is that we want that independence before becoming totally dependent. Therefore, what happens? We don't get it. Instead, we become dependent on our minds and intelligence, which means material energy.

Some jewellery fell off Lord Chaitanya, did you see?

There is a problem with those who want to be independent. They have a problem with the philosophy because the philosophy doesn't really facilitate that understanding. It doesn't facilitate their desire.

So, it just seems so much easier to just finally give in, instead of having to wait for old age to make you bow. It seems so much easier to voluntarily accept these points.

‘I was cheated once, and that's why I'm not going to surrender again.’ That's the basic fear. Practically everybody surrenders in the beginning. But on account of so many problems happening in the society, people now feel ‘I just can't trust it: I can't fully surrender’. The problem is that the philosophy dictates that one has to surrender to make advancement.

So, the only solution is that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The principle of surrender remains. The need to find a proper authority remains. All you can say then is I've got to search out such a person. But you can't change the philosophy or the system. Then you won't end up surrendering. You just have to keep looking until you can find someone that you trust. If you don't find anyone, then you have to say, ‘I'm very unfortunate.’

Then obviously the problem is oneself. If someone keeps saying, there is no one worth trusting… I don't think people are so foolish as to say that. They don't say that ‘There's no one worth trusting.’ It's very hard for me to put faith anymore, full faith. Then you have to find out what's the way to again develop the ability to have faith.

So, if a person has this problem, they should take it as the most serious problem. They should work to rectify it.

Some of the solutions are to increase the number of rounds one chants, to worship the Deity, to increase the amount of reading one does, to spend more time in the Dhama. In other words, one should not conduct one's business as usual if that's the problem. One should take it that this is a very serious problem I've developed, and I have to immediately attend to it. I should not put it off for doing business as usual. I should not think, well, it's okay, I'll take care of it gradually. Because the wrong mentality will affect all of one's thinking, and all of one's plans, and all that one does. It will spoil one's chances for success in one's other activities.

So, the problem is that we're impatient and we somehow think that we can skirt the issue, but it can't be skirted. Krishna is just so perceptive. Who are we trying to fool?

 

The questions and answers were transcribed by Rasanandini Dasi, Hare Krishna Melbourne, AU, 28.5.25.

You can hear the full audio files at https://tkgtm.com/listen/listen_1993_MP3.htm.

Watch a video presentation of these questions and answers at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AknhHXIUks&t=498s

For more videos of His Holiness Tamal Krishna Maharaja, go to https://www.youtube.com/@tkgvideolibrary.

Lecture (Dallas, Texas, 11.2.1997): the 25th Anniversary of Goswami's Accepting Sannyasa

nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhu-tale

srimate bhaktivedanta swami iti namine

namas te sarasvati deve gaura vani pracarine

nirvesesa sunyavadi pascatya desa tarine

vancha kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca

patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnavebhyo namo namah

I am offering my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my Spiritual Master His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prahbupada, who has picked me up from this ocean of material misery and situated me in the boat of transcendental knowledge.

Today, we are celebrating the completion of 25 years since the time that Srila Prabhupada awarded me sannyasa.  That was on the same day as the sanpancami day in 1972 in Jaipur - at the Temple of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda, the Deity of Sri Rupa Gosvami.  

For so many years, I did not know exactly which day it was that Prabhupada gave me sannyasa.  I know it was in January, and I knew the approximate date. There was a Pandal program there, organised by ISKCON at the Temple of Radha-Govinda.  But I was not clear about which day it was.  So, Radha Caran Dasa made some inquiries.  I told him to ask a number of devotees who were present there, and one of them, Kausalya Devi, who actually organized that program for Prabhupada, said that it had to be on the last day or next to the last day of the program.  

But I clearly remember it was not the last day because I remember doing something with Srila Prabhupada after his giving me sannyasa.  So, then I concluded that it must be the day before that.  

But then we wrote to Sweden to our calendar makers to send us the calendar from 1972 calculated for the proper time in India of those lunar calendar dates.  And I was so pleased to find out, to realise that the date actually Prabhupada selected to give me sannyasa was this day, the sanpancami day, a very auspicious day: the Appearance Day of Sri Visnupriya, the consort of Lord Caitanya.  It is Sarasvati-puja: a very appropriate day to give someone sannyasa.  

The Goddess Sarasvati is the Goddess of Learning. It is also the appearance and disappearance day of many great vaisnava acaryas: Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami,  Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and Pundarika Vidyanidhi.  So, it is hard to imagine a more auspicious day. 

So many times in the past years I was in Vrndavana, and I always felt that the sanpancami was special.  In Vrndavana, especially at this time of the year, you start to see the yellow flowers from the mustard plants in the fields, and all the fields are very beautiful with these flowers. It is actually a very nice time of the year. So all of this was, of course, clouded over by my ignorance at the time, because I had no idea of the importance of this date. But Prabhupada knew, and he made the perfect arrangement for me.  

He did not give me the sannyasa so easily.  He tested me for quite some time.  When I first determined to take sannyasa, it was actually the indication of godbrothers, who gave me some hint. Prabhupada actually gave the hint to me.  I was sitting with Prabhupada in Calcutta in his room, and he said, "I wish that you could revive your mood that you had in Los Angeles when you were serving me."  So, I was thinking about that for a while, "What does Prabhupada mean?"  I could not understand. Then one of my godbrothers, Bali Mardana, suggested to me that...I kept saying, "What is the difference between now and when I was in Los Angeles?"  And he said that, "Well, one difference is that now you are married.  In Los Angeles, you were a brahmacari." So I think that was the first idea that came to my mind that Prabhupada wants me to take sannyasa.

So when we were in Bombay at that time, we did not have the property at Juhu, so we were in a large building.  It was one of the newest buildings in Bombay.  It was called Akashkanga on Napensi Road (Warden Road, the old name was Warden Road).  We were in a nice part of Bombay, Malabara Hill area, but I think on the seaside.  So, on the seventh floor we had our Temple asrama. I went to Prabhupada one morning, very early in the morning, perhaps it was 3:30-4:00 in the morning, and I said to Srila Prabhupada, "I want to take sannyasa".  At that time Prabhupada did not respond immediately.  He asked why.  Actually I should correct myself.  I did not first say that.  I just came into Prabhupada’s room, and for two or three days, I just sat in Prabhupada’s room early in the morning.  It was very unusual because I didn’t say anything, and Prabhupada didn’t say anything.  

Normally, if you went into Prabhupada’s room, Prabhupada would want to know why you had come into his room, just like anyone would want to know why.  But I did not immediately bring up the topic, and I was silent. I think that Prabhupada could sense what it was that I wanted.  And eventually, I actually told him what it was.  He did not immediately respond favourably to the idea because I was married at the time, and he had to consider how such a young woman as my former wife would be able to look after herself. She is such a young girl.  So, he did not immediately encourage me to take sannyasa.

But I was quite determined once I got the idea in my mind.  I didn’t find married life very helpful to me in India.  There were a number of persons who were sannyasis, and I was the all-India GBC.  At that time, there was only one GBC for India. So I had to coordinate all the activities, including the activities of sannyasis.  Sannyasis are not so inclined to listen to grhasthas.  At least that was what I felt.  

So, it would seem to me that it made sense.  I didn’t have much more thought, except that practically my service would be facilitated.  But I kept up with it.  When we went to Jaipur, I went before the Deity Radha-Govinda, which is a five-thousand-year-old Deity. This is a Deity that Rupa Gosvami excavated from the earth, which had been buried for a long time.  He saw a cow passing milk over a hill, and gradually he had it revealed that the Deity is underneath this earth, and he excavated this Deity.  The Deity was installed by Vrajanatha, the great-grandson of Lord Krsna. So, this Deity is very important to our sampradaya.  It is the abideya-vigraha, the Deity who represents the practice of devotional service, the acceptance of devotional service.

So, when I came to Jaipur and I saw this beautiful Deity of Govinda, I felt that Krsna was giving me shelter, and that I could fully surrender myself to Krsna.  So within my mind, I gave up everything.  I gave up whatever attachments I had to wife and position. Actually, it was not so much that I took sannyasa to be able to order around the sannyasis, because in those days, if you were a sannyasi, you could not simultaneously be a GBC member.  So, I knew that if I took sannyasa, I had to give up being a GBC member.  So, in my mind, taking shelter of Govindadev meant to give up my wife, my position, and simply to take shelter of  Krsna exclusively.  I did this as far as I was able.

So, I took shelter of Radha-Govinda. Once I made this determination, I started to act in a different way. Prabhupada was staying in the Temple compound, and there really weren’t any proper quarters.  But in the corner of the compound of the temple, there was a round room, a very small room, maybe half the size of this room, but in a round shape. It was a type of turret. Prabhupada was staying in that room.  So, all the devotees would come in the morning for darsana.

But I would not go inside that room.  I would only sit at the threshold of the room because I felt that now I was renouncing the position of being a leader, so I didn’t want to sit in the front, where I would normally sit with Prabhupada.  I just sat outside. Prabhupada saw this and so he commented, "Oh, our Tamal Krishna Maharaja is...something, maybe very humble or something."  That was the first time he made any comment like that out loud.  So the devotees got to know something was going on because I was a householder. How could I be Tamal Krishna Maharaja?

So, of course, most of the ladies who were present were married, and they became alarmed on behalf of my former wife.  They became very alarmed, because she was in Bombay and she had not come there.  So they objected, and they made a group (this is described in the Lilamrta). They made a party and went to Prabhupada and requested that this sannyasa idea was not very fair to her.  

So Prabhupada accepted their appeal, and he again requested that I should reconsider, but I was very, very determined.  In fact, I went out and went down into the market, and bought some cloth and had it dyed saffron (laughter).  I even went and got some bamboo (more laughter). It was very heavy because in Northern India, there is no bamboo growing. So, the bamboo was very heavy because it was old bamboo that people used for perhaps drying clothes, for hanging clothes overhead, or who knows what they use it for.  But that was all I had, very heavy bamboo.  And I made a danda. 

So, when Prabhupada went to the program in the Pandal in the evening, during the slide show. There would always be a slide show every evening as part of the program.  Prabhupada would lecture, and there would be a slide show.  So, during the slide show, Prabhupada called me over and he said, "Your wife is very young and she is also my disciple, so I must consider her. So, you should reconsider. In the future (he said something like this), it may be all right."  And I said, "She will not agree now or in the future.  Because a woman will never free her husband to take sannyasa.  So, she is not going to be happy later on or sooner.  Either way she is not going to be happy. But she will not give her permission later any more than she will now.  So, if it is proper to take sannyasa, it might as well be now because the idea of her approving of it is not an issue.  It won’t happen."

So, somehow Prabhupada saw that I was really determined, and he called me to his room that evening, and his secretary, Syamasundara, was there.  He asked Syamasundara what he thought. Syamasundara said, "I think that he should take sannyasa - be allowed to take."  Prabhupada looked at me and said, "Well, you have to have a danda, cloth." I said, "I already have them. Everything is ready" (laughter). Prabhupada smiled (more laughter) and saw that I was quite determined.  So then he decided, "Alright, then it will be." He looked at the dates, I  guess, and decided that it would be on this sanpancami day.

And early in the morning - it was about 6 or so in the morning. There was no audience or anything. Just behind was a big field, a big ground where we had our  Pandal.  The Deity which is now in New York was the Pandal Deity.  Prabhupada had a system that when he would hold a big Pandal program in India, he would get a new Deity of Radha and Krsna, and he would begin the worship of that Deity in the Pandal.  Then he would ship the Deity to some foreign country.  So the Deity that is now in New York was in that Pandal - the Radha-Govinda Deity.

So, in front of that Deity of Radha-Govinda, Prahbupada performed the sannyasa ceremony. It was just Srila Prabhupada sitting there - he did the whole ceremony - and myself. You might have seen there is a photograph, it’s in the book Servant of the Servant.  So, he gave me the name Tamal Krishna Goswami. That was the first time anybody got that title, Goswami.  Prabhupada said, "You have given up a very chaste wife, you have given up your position, so I am giving you this title Goswami.  Just like the Gosvamis gave up their family, position, etc."  And then, of course, he called me to his room and asked me what my program would be. I proposed to Prabhupada that I would travel by foot, walking through India by myself to preach.  

Prabhupada said, "Very good. Go immediately." (Laughter.) But after about an hour, he called me back and he said, "That is not very practical. A sannyasi should have some brahmacari assistants." So he asked me to take some assistants, and we made a party of brahmacari assistants who came with me.  

He sent me on my first preaching engagement to Ahmedabad.  In Ahmedabad he had received one invitation, but he also was invited to go to Africa, so he asked me to go to Ahmedabad on his behalf. I remember the next day after the sannyasa  (or perhaps it was the same day) we were going around the town and a marriage procession came by, big band and everything.  Prabhupada told me, "Don’t look (laughter). Now you cannot look any more." Then he started to chant this mantra.  He gave me this mantra as a sannyasa mantra:

etamsa asthaya paratma-nistham

adhyasitam purvatamair maharsibhih

ahamtarisyami duranta-param

tamo mukundanghri-nisevayaiva.

This was chanted by an Avanti brahmana.  "I shall cross over the insurmountable ocean of nescience, being firmly fixed in the service of the lotus feet of Krsna.  This was approved by the previous acaryas, who were fixed in firm devotion to the Lord, Paramatma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." 

This is the text that appears in the Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila Chapter 3, Text 6. Prabhupada comments that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that of the 64 items required for rendering devotional service, acceptance of the symbolic marks of sannyasa is a regulative principle.  If one accepts the sannyasa order, his main business is to devote his life completely to the service of Mukunda, Krsna.  If one does not completely devote his mind and body to the service of the Lord, he does not actually become a sannyasi. It is not simply a matter of changing dress. Prabhupada quotes  from the Gita (6.1):

anasritahkarma-phalam  karyam karma karoti yah

sa sannyasi ca yogi ca   na niragni na cakriyah

One who works devotedly for the satisfaction of Krsna is a sannyasi.  The dress is not sannyasa, but the attitude of service to Krsna is.

Srila Prabhupada also quotes from the Upadesamrta (text 1). Srila Rupa Goswami’s text advocates that one should accept the tridandi sannyasa order by controlling the six forces.

 vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam   jihva-vegam udaropastha vegam

etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah   sarvam apinam prthivim sa sisyat

"One who can control the forces of speech, mind, anger, belly, tongue, and genitals is known as a goswami and is competent to accept disciples all over the world."

This was the verse that Prabhupada gave to me to repeat. 

It also mentions in the Caitanya-caritamrta, after verse 6, that after accepting the sannyasa order, Lord Caitanya decided to go to Vrndavana and engage himself wholly and solely in the service of Mukunda in a solitary place.  We know that Lord Caitanya was also engaged in many other activities, but this describes, during his going en route to Vrndavana, what took place. Of course, we know that he was brought back to the house of Advaita Acarya by Nityananda Prabhu.  He went into an ecstatic trance, and he mistook the Ganges for the Yamuna. Nityananda encouraged him this way and brought him back, because Lord Nityananda knew that the devotees would feel the separation from Lord Caitanya too much.  So they all got to have a darsana again.

So this is the history of how I took sannyasa. Of course, about nine months afterwards Prabhupada again asked me to accept the service of being the GBC because there was no suitable replacement. So I had to perform both functions.  But originally he intended that the two functions should be separate: sannyasa and GBC, because GBC requires a lot of management, and a sannyasi especially should be free - according to Prabhupada - to travel and preach, and see to the spiritual welfare of the devotees and the societ,y and to suggest to the GBC where new temples could be opened.

So, I have tried to serve Srila Prabhupada through this sannyasa.  Sannyasa is only accepted amongst the vaisnavas for increasing service to the guru.  It is not necessary otherwise, taking sannyasa as a regulative principle.  The purpose is that, by freeing oneself of other responsibilities, then one can actually increase one's service to the spiritual master.  Therefore I took sannyasa.  

I think that actually it is a fact that, because I was a sannyasi, I could serve Prabhupada in many different places in the world.  I was not entangled by any family responsibilities. 

Of course, I still feel totally unworthy of the title Prabhupada gave me "Goswami."  I am very imperfect in controlling the various vegams that I see. That awarding of that title by Prabhupada was something for me to try to achieve, and I am always striving to do so.  I don’t see the position of sannyasa so much as...of course a sannyasi is the guru of the varnasrama asramas.  

But I especially see it in the form of being a disciple.  That is why I wanted to have this program here.  Because I thought it was appropriate, since whatever I am as a sannyasi is 100% due to Prabhupada. He gave me the title, he taught me, he accepted me into this asrama, he taught me what this asrama means, he encourages and inspires me to live up to the vows of this asrama, and he is the goal for me of this asrama.  So, I thought that it is appropriate to have this ceremony before Srila Prabhupada.  I thought for your sake...all of you also it is, because a sannyasa is a guru and the guru represents the sampradaya.  

So, I think that it is appropriate that, even if you worship the sannyasi on his sannyasa anniversary day, it is appropriate that the previous acaryas who are all here - Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and of course, Srila Prabhupada, will be very pleased that the devotees are worshipping the spiritual master in disciplic succession, and - through his worship - they are worshipping all of the members of the sampradaya.

I thought that a few of you could speak on the subject in a personal sense, of how my sannyasa has affected your lives.  In what way has it affected your lives? Not just myself, but myself as a sannyasi - that role and how it might have affected you in particular. Maybe some of you have thought of something to say.  I asked Durasaya to contact people and have them think about this. 

Caitanya Candra, maybe you can say something?         

Caitanya Candra: I was thinking that when I first came to the temple, it was by the mercy of a very nice devotee, Kesava Dasa, who was encouraging me to come to the Radha-Damodara bus (I was in California). This was after he had encouraged me to follow the four regulative principles, chant rounds. At that time, I was actually able to read Bhagavad-gita by Krishna’s mercy.  

Before I was chanting I couldn’t read it.  It was inaccessible to me at that point.  When I started chanting, it was.  I wanted to join the movement, and I didn’t know anything about it.  I knew the philosophy was perfect.  So I wanted to see for myself if there was some example of that philosophy being lived.  So, Kesava invited me to San Francisco. 

There was a huge garage, and we had one bus parked there and some vans (at least the Volkswagen van was there).  So when I walked in (Kesava had picked me up at the airport) and I came to the temple, the first thing I think he brought me to was the garage.  I got to see the brahmacaris and Tamal Krishna Goswami and Visnujana Maharaja.  Just by seeing them I could understand they were very blissful and there was no question in my mind at that point whether these persons are living the philosophy - it was very, very obvious. 

So, that was a very strong point, to see a big party of renounced persons who were really absorbed.  That was extremely inspirational.  My first experience was that was like "It’s happening, so now I know I can join."  Kesava took me to Los Angeles; he brought me back to my home.  

We didn’t tell you, we left in the middle of the night at twelve o’clock (Caitanya Candra laughing).  We went to my house and sold all my stuff and got rid of all my stuff.  I shaved my head, and I went and showed all my friends. They all thought I was going crazy.  I said, "You’re all crazy, so who cares."  

Then we went to Los Angeles to see Prabhupada, and when we drove up there Tamal Krishna Goswami was happy to see me there with Kesava, but he warned me.  He said, "You should watch out, Kesava is real passionate. Be careful."  He immediately started to get me on track a little bit.  

By your mercy - actually, in Los Angeles there was one big room  where I think all the sannyasis took prasadam together after Prabhupada ate.  But I came up right after you were done, so I got to eat all the sannyasis and Prabhupada’s remnants everyday during the time that I was there.  That was really special.  Then, when we were going to go back to San Francisco, you were going to drive with me in my car.  The car wasn’t really that good.  It was by Krishna’s arrangement that you decided not to ride in my car all the way back to San Francisco.  The car broke down  a few times on the way, and I was thinking "Krsna, Oh God, I’m glad he didn’t come with me. It would have been such a terrible inconvenience."  

Anyway, I was very impressed by the examples of the devotees, especially Tamal Krishna Maharaja.  When I got back, I was one of the bhaktas on the bhakta program, and Gurudeva and Visnujana Maharaja were the bhakta leaders.  So that was a real inspiration: all the wonderful classes and the training.  

I used to chant really, really slow.  You used to ask me, "How many rounds have you done?"  I used to say "This many." You would say,  "You chant way too slow."  You would always get on my case, because I was really puffed up: I still am.  You are always like, giving me nice nudges to try and improve, and that was real inspirational.  

Then, of course, we finally left San Francisco to go to Denver, because Prabhupada was going to Denver.  I can’t remember where it was when you told me - it may have been in Chicago – but you just told me "You’re going to take initiation."  I had only joined one month earlier.  So that was kind of unusual - there were even people who were there for two weeks. I didn’t exactly know: I was there for one month.  You told me "Now you’re going to take initiation."  I’m very grateful for that.

Srila Gurudeva: Will some other person speak?  Prajapati, you said that you got news of the sannyasa ceremony?

Prajapati: We were sitting in the prasadam room of the previous Dallas Temple on Turtle Creek Avenue, and the news came, "Oh, Prabhupada has awarded goswami. Everybody was very, very impressed, "Goswami".  There were other sannyasis, but this was the first time a goswami."

Srila Gurudeva: You were here in Dallas at the time you heard that?

Prajapati: But I think that Caitanya had the good fortune to have your association.  In those days, I didn’t have your association.  It was an inspirational thing when it was mentioned to me by Durasaya that I should think about it: your sannyasa and what it has meant to me.  So many of our godbrothers took sannyasa but were not able to maintain it.  The fact that, at least, there is one success means that it is possible.

Srila Gurudeva: Yes. Well, I think that it seems to me that the important principle to be understood is that one of the things that characterises Vedic culture is that people are very dutiful.  If they give their word, they keep their word.  A person’s word is everything. We see that Lord Rama was willing to go into exile into the forest for so many years just to keep his father’s word.  

So, once we have given our word, we should not break it.  So, I made a promise to Prabhupada and to the Supreme Lord, and I feel that to keep that promise intact is so important.  Of course, it has become more and more important, because over the years so many persons have depended on my keeping that word.  

I recall that after the sannyasa ceremony, I had very good fortune that when I came in front of the Deity of Radha-Govinda, Rupa Goswami’s Deity, the pujaris came, and they took so many garlands from the Deity’s neck and they put the garlands on me.  The news spread all over the city.  In Jaipur about thirty thousand people come everyday to see Radha-Govinda. So everybody heard that the new, white sannyasi is there.  They became very excited, and so many people came and gave me blessings.  So I felt that was very, very auspicious that the Deity garlands... Radha-Govinda and Rupa Gosvami were blessing me, and the people, the devotees of Radha-Govinda, were blessing me also.

Prajapati: I remember in New York on 55th Street, my little children Srimad-Bhagavatam and Sanatana looked up to you so much that they wanted to dress up like sannyasis.

Srila  Gurudeva: They did dress up.  They would walk around with little mini-dandas and dress like the sannyasis.  They would walk around the Temple.  And, I guess one would even call themselves by my name and the other one by Visnujana’s, "I’m So-and-So".

Srila Gurudeva: Another realisation?  I don’t know who Durasaya spoke with."

Nandini devi dasi: When we first came to the Temple, it was Janmastami. Shortly after, you arranged a darsana for my husband and me to come to see you.  I remember that I felt that I didn’t have any clothes to wear. I felt that I should go and I went out and bought this Indian hippie dress and a chaddar to go with the outfit.  I remember then, how when we were sitting on the floor, I was just amazed at how effulgent you seemed, and how so kindly and so lovingly you spoke to us.  That has always inspired me.  I am such a nonsense that your effulgence burns in my heart, and is an inspiration when I am out in the world.  

I just attended a funeral, and when the priest spoke, his words were so pale.  I feel so blessed by the strength, the purity and pristine consciousness that you’ve given us.

Srila Gurudeva: I think that there is an advantage to sannyasa in a sense that a sannyasi is an inspiration to the brahmacaris and helpful to the householders, because householders by nature are entangled by the very nature of householder life.  Because a sannyasi has no such attachment, he can look after and encourage so many householders. 

We know the example of Sanatana Gosvami, who used to go throughout Vraja, and everyone in Vraja knew him as bhara gosvami. He would ask the people in the villages (he knew them by their first names), he would inquire of their families, "Did your daughter get married? How is your son? How is your old mother?" So many personal concerns.  He would look after the people with personal concern.  So, I think it is an advantage to a community that there is a sannyasi residing there, because he can just encourage everyone.  I don’t know how far the householders encourage each other.  But I like to call different people on the phone - if they have phones (laughter) - and just ask little questions and say a few words.  It is helpful, so I think that there is some benefit.

Caitanya Candra: I also wanted to add the time when Srila Prabhupada’s books were coming out. The Bhagavatams were coming out with the Radha-Damodara Party - we used to have these big meetings at different times before marathons, and the special purpose of the meetings was that you were going to be there to preach to all the brahmacaris and inspire them more. And we heard so much news from Prabhupada. That was always the big nectar thing, because we were going to go to a place where we were going to have a big festival, where Tamal Krishna Goswami was going to tell us what Prabhupada says about everything.  We were always eager to have this news, what Prabhupada says.  So, that was also an amazing inspiration at that time.  All the books were coming out, and we were distributing so many books. Preaching was the mood of actually trying to please Prabhupada and trying to deliver the conditioned souls. 

The whole mood of sannyasa is compassionate, and that mood was very strongly developed in the devotees in the Radha-Damodara Party who associated with book distributors. I think that the mood and the determination to preach that you conveyed in order to deliver the conditioned souls was the foundation for so many very strong devotees' spiritual lives in America. They became so serious to preach, and they became empowered by Lord Caitanya, and got so much faith in Prabhupada’s instructions.

Srila Gurudeva: Durasaya, you have something to say?

Durasaya: I was thinking about what you were saying about encouraging householders and all the devotees.  Because, in a sense, we are all sannyasis -  in the sense that we are all trying to give up sense gratification.  We are all in different degrees of sannyasa: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and when we’re all situated in our particular degree of renunciation, it is very helpful to have someone around who has gone the full hundred percent, to the full degree, as an example.  

That example is important, because without it we could lose sight of the goal and make so many mistakes.  For instance, I could become complacent and think maybe I was renounced enough.  But with your renounced example there, that would be impossible.  Or perhaps I could think that some other bogus person was a sannyasi.  With your example there, that also would be impossible.  I could even think myself to be a sannyasi.  Or I could compare myself to someone absorbed in sense gratification, and make the mistake of thinking he is happier than I am, that I had made a mistake by becoming a devotee.  That’s also not possible with your example.  

One time, Srila Prabhupada said to you - after you had mentioned after a program you were appreciating how everyone was so appreciative of him - "It’s because I have given up sex life."

Srila Gurudeva: The Delhi Pandal: thousands of people were bowing down to Prabhupada. Then he said that.

Durasaya: So, this material world moves on sex life, and to reestablish one’s self in the spiritual world means to give up sex life.  Along with Prabhupada’s own admission about that, he also said that purity is the force.  Actually, the force by which he was able to establish this movement all over the world came from that purity of his, which is based on his strict renunciation of the material world.  I would also say the force by which you have been able to establish Prabhupada’s movement here in Dallas, and in so many other places in the world - all these buildings, all these devotees, this restaurant, the preaching - in that sense it’s also based on your renunciation.  So in that sense, when you ask us how your sannyasa has affected us, I would say it would be very difficult to understand where we would all be without it.    

Srila Gurudeva: Mathuranatha, anything to say?

Mathuranatha:  I remember back in the middle of the late 70s I was attracted to the philosophy of Krishna consciousness. I was reading this article in Back to Godhead about sannyasa. I was fortunate enough to go to Gita-Nagari, and you were the first sannyasi I had ever met.  Even then, you were instructing me on householder life, and actually encouraged me to move to Gita-Nagari.  

So, I remember coming back and telling Lila, and she wouldn’t say anything.  She said, "Write me when you get there."  So, gradually we had many devotees come through. A lot of brahmacaris would come through.  I remember on one occasion, they called us and said, "We’re having a couple of brahmacaris coming through, can they stay at your house for Christmas." They were having a Christmas marathon. The next day, twelve brahmacaris showed up. So, you came through with your entourage.  Of course, we were fortunate to have you stay at our house for about three or four days, and you were giving classes.  

It was the first time Lila had ever met someone like yourself who was completely detached, a real spiritual person, and you were so nice to her, you preached to her so nicely.  It was a real turning point in her life.  At that time she started to actually practice Krishna consciousness.  I think that it was only because of that we were able to nicely uproot and actually sell our house and move here.  

I also remember that Radhanatha lived right next door to me. You went to his house and Nanda-priya locked herself in the bathroom. (She’ll probably kill me for telling that.)  Now she is the nice devotee that she is, and that’s because of you.

Srila Gurudeva: I think that most of you in household life have to consider that one day you will take sannyasa.  I don’t think that every devotee who is a householder can take sannyasa, unless someone is actually by nature brahminical.  It is not advisable.  It is better to be a vanasprastha. 

Those who are vaisyas should be vanaprasthas. ONe who has a vaisya nature should be a vanaprastha.  But a sannyasi has to be a brahmana.  It he is not brahminical then it becomes very problematic to maintain sannyasa.  

Certainly, everyone has to be renounced: whether you are vanaprastha one day or a sannyasa.  So, you are all moving in that direction.  Just the very process of vairaghya-vidya - Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s process - draws one towards vairaghya, renunciation, through knowledge, vidya.  

So, this system is set up where you will become detached and renounced automatically, if you follow the process nicely.  Of course, the purpose of that detachment and renunciation is to increase one’s service. The result of increasing one’s service is that you become attached to Krishna. The whole point is to develop love for Krishna.  We cannot love Krishna if we love this material world.  At the same time, we are told to use things in this world for the service of Krishna.  So, we have to learn not to be the enjoyers of these things, but to use everything in the service of Krishna.

Srila Gurudeva: Does anyone have some further thoughts?  Salagram?

Salagram:  Srila Gurudeva, I think that I am in a fortunate position in one sense, because I was in the brahmacari asrama for quite a few years, and now I’m in the grhastha asrama.  I think that one thing that everyone really is saying and feeling is that, regarding your sannyasa, it would be difficult for anyone to see you in any other way.

Srila Gurudeva: It would be difficult for me to be any other way?

Salagram: Therefore, when we start trying to speak about what it means, it would be very difficult to separate all your activities.  I would like to say that the brahmacaris are very fortunate to have you for their spiritual master, to have your association. This association can take one through difficult years in the grhastha asrama, because it is difficult.

Srila Gurudeva:  Misra Bhagavan, you want to speak?

Misra Bhagavan:  Well, I remember the first time that I saw you was a picture in the Back to Godhead magazine.  It was in 1974. Mother Yasoda was on the cover and inside was an article on the Radha-Damodara Party. I was already in a pretty nice temple. I saw you and Visnujana Maharaja, and you immediately became my boyhood heroes. I  felt that that was really the most happening thing.  

At that time, everyone would advise you to run away from home and hide in different places. You said that I could travel around with you. You were a sannyasi, and you were travelling and taking care of the Radha-Damodara Party. 

I remember talking with your former wife, and she went through a lot of trauma over it. I told her that I thought how it was inconceivable that you could be doing something else other than taking care of the Radha-Damodara Party, and how you taught all of us brahmacaris what it’s all about just to be a brahmacari.  

You also taught quite a few sannyasis what it was all about.  You were getting all the training directly from Prabhupada, and Prabhupada was so pleased and so happy that they could ride on the bus.  You presented him all the men you had trained. Athough you would have been a wonderful householder, what you did as a sannyasi...

Srila Gurudeva:  Now I get the chance to be head of a family without the burden of a wife, children and grandchildren, brothers and sisters.  This is a better way to fulfil the householder dharma: from the position of renunciation, rather than to be directly involved.  And Prabhupada was like that,  the head of the family.

The position to be in, of course, is Prabhupada’s consciousness.  Prabhupada’s consciousness was so elevated that, to him, sannyasa was external. It was an external, superficial thing, practically, in many ways.  In other words, to me, Prabhupada’s characteristic feature is love for Krishna.  And, [then] sannyasa is practically effortless.  But, unless one has that love for Krishna, it is a big effort.   But it was not a big effort for Prabhupada.  I think spreading Krishna Consciousness and this movement was a huge effort.

Prabhupada said to me one time, "I am above these things.  You are a young sannyasi; you must be careful."  He said, "But I am an old man; these things do not affect me." Generally, sannyasa is not given to young people. There has been a history of young sannyasis in the sampradayas, but no doubt with the Western mentality, our policy to give sannyasa when someone gets older is a wiser policy, so that we can avoid the various problems that occur.

Karttikeya:  I want to say that it seems that for you it is effortless.

Srila Gurudeva: No, it is not effortless.  Actually, for a very long time I thought I would meditate on the point about how I am a sannyasi, and I tried to do so many things that a sannyasi should do.  

The circumstances I am in now make it look effortless, because I cannot do the things that a sannyasi normally does.  I cannot travel constantly now. When I am in the school there are so many young ladies there. When I associate with the householders here, they have little children.  So I find that I have to somehow try to be transcendental in all of these circumstances.  I just try to relate as  a devotee.  I mean, if I think I am a sannyasi then I won’t go so easily into the school, I won’t go so easily into the householder's home, I won’t play with the little children. So, I don’t think so much like I used to think. I just think that I am Krishna’s devotee and they are devotees. They are conditioned souls that need to be helped.  In that sense you can become transcendental and it becomes a little less of an effort (apparently). It is a different way of dealing with it, and maybe it is a better way.

But you have to you have to be careful because - Prabhupada wrote me in a letter -  "You cannot dove-tail sense gratification in the name of Krishna Consciousness." So, one has to be very cautious not to do things which are sense gratification thinking this is Krishna Consciousness.  It is a very fine line if you’re on the right side of it.  But I think that if we see that the whole community is a big family, then everybody can play their respective role.  A brahmacari can think I don’t need to get married, there are already so many people who are married.  And the householders can think the brahmacaris are our sons, we have to look after them.  Or, we can all think the brahmacarinis need to get married, we have to find nice husbands for them.  We can look at the little children and think these are my younger brothers or sisters, or nephews or nieces, or grandchildren or whatever.  

If we have a vision like that, that’s a very nice vision of a large family.  That’s a vision of a community.  Then you don’t have to feel so agitated, "Oh, I need to get married."  You don’t need to get married; there are already plenty of people who are married.  A brahmacari does not have to think he has to get married because there are already plenty of married people.  If we identify with the community, then we can play a role in the community rather than just identifying with myself and my senses.  We can think, "What does this community need of me?"

So, in that sense I try to play my role as part of the community, and then the sannyasa is much easier. Otherwise, if I start remembering that I am a sannyasi, then I cannot do practically any of the things that I do.  I would never go to school as a sannyasi. In this condition, it is too unfavorable. In so many ways, everything about it is unfavorable.  But if I look at it in the right way, everything about it is favorable.  It is according to how I see it.  From the strict rules and regulations point of view of what the scriptures say a sannyasi should and should not do, it is not a good idea.  But, from the principle of preaching and overall strategy, things of this sort, then it can be done, for a higher cause.

So, I think that people should identify themselves within the context of the whole community, seeing yourself as part of this community.  That will give you a lot of strength.  Because we all want to be part of a family.  There are some people who are like hermits.  But for people who are social - and humans are social creatures - then being with others is very nice. I think that it is very good that people can feel that way.  The brahmacari does not have to feel, "Oh, this is all maya."  How can someone else who is part of your family be maya?  They can think they have their part  to play and I have mine. But if they start thinking "Maya", then that’s on the bodily platform.

Srila Gurudeva: Radha Krishna you have something to say?  Some realisations?

Radha Krishna:  I guess that the first time I met you was in Hong Kong in October 1987, the year when the Hong Kong temple was opened.  That was the time when the stock market crashed.

Srila Gurudeva:  What was that?

Caitanya Candra: Ha! Ha! The Stock Market crashed.

Radha Krishna:  I remember that you would go for morning walks near the harbour, and all the devotees would be walking and running behind you.

Srila Gurudeva:  Yes.  That was the Hong Kong Harbour.

Radha Krishna:  One time, you invited my brother and me to go for a walk.  We walked along the harbour for some time, and you never said anything.  We just chanted.  When we came back, you turned around and asked me, "So, what do you think?"  I remember saying that it was okay and that I liked what I was seeing.  Later on, you called me up to your room with my brother. I clearly remember that the first thing you asked me was what I thought about family life.  I said it was hellish.  You said, "That’s right!" (Laughter.) That made me think about it a lot, and I have since then maintained what you have said.

Srila Gurudeva: Prabhupada also asked me the same question the first time I talked to him privately. He said, “What is your decision about whether you want to remain a brahmacari or get married?” I said, “I will remain a brahmacari.”  Then I did not keep my determination.  But Prabhupada pulled me out of household life very quickly, in less than two years.  That was not very long.  

He asked me that question the first time I ever spoke to him personally: "Will you be married or not?" He wanted to know.  As soon as I said no, he said, "Because there is a 75% chance that if you are married, you will not get out of the material world."  If I said yes, he probably wouldn’t have said that (laughter).  But because I said that, he told me, "75% chance you will not get out of the material world".  

But 25% is a pretty good chance.  You just have to make sure you are in that 25% category.  Not that there is any guarantee for a sannyasa or a brahmacari. In other words, how many people remain sannyasi or brahmacari also?  Very few.  So, ultimately, the asrama has to be suitable for the individual.  The varna and the asrama have to be suitable.