Q&A on management and authority in ISKCON (2-3.6.1993, Christchurch, New Zealand)

PART 1 (2.6.1993)

Disciple 1: [Disciples] probably surrender more to the spiritual master than they would to any other person; they go out of their way to do things for the spiritual master…

TKG: That's why the spiritual master should make very heavy demands on them (inaudible), not water down the instruction, but make very heavy demands. Since the disciple is more surrendered to the guru than anyone else, it's better that the guru makes the greatest demands, more than anyone else would make. Because others are not getting the respect from that disciple, they have to be a little careful in what they say. The guru should demand the most from the disciple on behalf of Krishna.

Disciple 1: I was going to ask, often it can be seen that the disciple is feeling that the spiritual master really is their ever-well-wisher and is really concerned for them. Often in relationships with the authorities, that same reciprocation isn't there. [I’m] asking how to overcome that?

TKG: I want to make a comment…This is a mistaken conception, that ‘I am surrendered to my guru but not to others.’ I think that the spiritual master comes to us through the authority of the temple, and the proof is abundant in all of Srila Prabhupada's dealings. You read the letters of Srila Prabhupada. You'll see that, by and large, almost all the letters are written to a few individuals.

Now, Prabhupada had 5-10,000 disciples, but there's no question: there are not 5-10,000 people written to in letters. There are only a few. So, what about all those other persons? Prabhupada taught those persons that they should accept his instructions coming through the temple president and authorities. So, you were supposed to surrender to the temple president's authority because he was representing the spiritual master.

Not that you surrender to the guru, but not to the temple president or other authorities. Then you don't surrender to the guru, because the guru hardly ever comes around physically. Just like now, Srila Prabhupada has disappeared physically, so how do we get his instruction? The spiritual master instructs through so many senior persons. The spiritual master continues to give his association and instructions through senior persons. That doesn't mean he doesn't give [instruction] through his books. In Prabhupada’s case, we have his books, tapes, and so many things.

But I personally find the books do not necessarily answer your very specific, individual needs. In other words, each person's life is so particular. How to apply the instructions of the books has to be told. When Prabhupada was present, if you had a direct connection with him, then he would do that. Or else the temple president would do that. So now that Prabhupada is not present, how do Prabhupada’s disciples get that? So, I personally get it through my god brothers. That's how I get it. And those who are the disciples of Prabhupada’s disciples? There's a system.

I'm not under a temple president. If I were, I’d get it through the temple president, and I would get it through my god brothers. So, we should get the application of the instruction through the temple president. It doesn't matter that, because you have your spiritual master physically present, now you don't have to deal with the temple president. You can do that, but then don't delude yourself into thinking that you're still following Prabhupada.

Just admit that ‘Actually I've lost faith in Prabhupada, or I never had faith in Prabhupada because I really don't know who Prabhupada is, and now I'm making my own movement.’ Just admit that. Instead of trying to water down or destroy what is ISKCON or what Prabhupada’s legacy is, don't change the system. Just make your own system and admit it. ‘I have made my own system,’ and give the society a new name. You register an organisation and let it be very clear what it is, instead of watering down this whole system.

There's a temple president, and he has authority. The authority of the gurus goes through the temple president, not directly to the disciples. Prabhupada did not directly instruct disciples. He did it through the GBC and temple presidents, and that system should be maintained by all ISKCON gurus today. If they don’t, they're going to break everything. The whole structure will be broken, and there will be chaos: anarchy. Everybody will then become independent, and they will all decide, ‘Now we're going to do this, we're going to do this, I want to do this, I want to do that.’

That's not the way Prabhupada set up this movement. So, you just admit, ‘I've left the movement. Now I'm a varnasrami.’ Just say it, ‘I'm a member of varnasrama. I follow varnasrama dharma, not ISKCON.’ Then you'll see how the movement will be checked in its progress.

That's fine. ISKCON will preach to you varnasramis because this movement works on the principle of authority. It is set up that way by Srila Prabhupada. It's very clear from all the letters, and it has not changed.

The reason it changed is because some leaders proved incapable. Gurus fell down, temple presidents, GBC, fell down. So, people say ‘I don't have any more faith, I'm going to be my own guru, my own temple president, my own leader. I don't listen to anyone. But actually, that's not the way it's supposed to be.

[To disciple 1] You may not be making this point, but I'm commenting that when you say that we're more surrendered to our guru than we are to the temple authorities, I don't agree. At least I don't want my disciples to be in that mentality. If anybody else wants their disciples to be that way, that's their right.

I don't want that. I want my disciples to see that when the temple president tells them something, the guru is speaking through the temple president. They should see the guru in the words of the temple president. Unless this system is applied, our movement will lose its ability to function. Because it's not being applied, there's so much confusion now.

It was like that. Ask people that during Prabhupada’s time whether it was like that. You can ask. When it wasn't like that, Prabhupada would correct the temple president. It's not that sometimes the temple president may not have deviated. Then Prabhupada would correct them, but he wouldn't violate the principle. I don't say that the temple president may always accurately repeat what the guru said; then it will be corrected. But Prabhupada never changed the principle. Because then there's no authority.

Then you say, ‘I'm surrendered to my guru more than anyone else.’ What is the proof of it? ‘It's in my heart.’ Prove it by action. What's in your heart should come out in action, practical action. We should maintain the systems that Prabhupada set up. This movement is not just content, it's also form. Prabhupada spent so much time establishing the temples, the deities, the structure of the GBC, the structure of the temple management, so much time.

He put aside his writing, which was the most important work, to spend more time on all these other things because he knew that if these other things were not there, then the people would not be able to get the full benefit of what he had written.

This movement is meant to create a structure by which you can follow the teachings of the books.

If the structure of the movement changes, it will be very hard to fully surrender. That's what's happening. People are not fully surrendered. People have far more scope now to do whatever they want than they did in the old days. You can say that's progress, well, let's judge it by the advancement. If you're going to say it's progress, let's see if the movement is progressing, or let's see if the individual is actually becoming more detached from sense enjoyment. I don't see that when people have that freedom that they actually become better. At least I don't want that freedom personally. I don't find that it helps me. No, I want to be tightly under the control of my god brothers, because I have full faith that they represent Prabhupada. I have full faith in them. Not necessarily all of them, but some of them.

Just like if someone said, ‘I don't have faith in this temple president.’ What would Prabhupada say? ‘Okay, where do you want to go? The person would say, ‘I want to go there.’ ‘So, very good, go and work with that person.’ Then they'd write back, ‘I don't have faith in this person either.’ Then Prabhupada would say, ‘You have a problem. Now it's not the temple president, it's you who has the problem.’ Then he would say, ‘Do whatever you want, what can be done?’

Certainly, at some point, you can say, ‘Then do whatever you want, what can be done?’ A woman got divorced, and she wanted to marry again, but Prabhupada didn't like that. So, we wrote to Srila Prabhupada ‘What should we do?’ He said, ‘What can be done?’ That was his way of saying ‘I don't approve, but what can be done? We cannot force people.’ But we're not going to change the preaching and the philosophy to suit the material desires of individuals. We can't do that. Then everything will be lost

Prabhupada said ‘If I drop the four regulative principles, we can really have a lot of people.’ So, if we just let anything go on, whatever we want, then maybe more people will come. But what will be accomplished? Will it be Krishna consciousness?

[To disciple 1] What was your final point?

Disciple 1: I was saying that in the past, [devotees] might have given so much to the society. They might have given so many assets – this, that, and the other - and then there's been some reverse. Their husband might have left them with a young family, or they’ve become sick, or something…

TKG: What should we do?

Disciple 1: The society might have seen them as a burden, might not have provided for them, and they might have had to turn to the government for some benefits.

TKG: …and, therefore?

Disciple 1: How do you see that? What should we…

TKG: We should try to always respect and appreciate the service that anyone has done in the past. We don't ever disrespect someone, but we object to changing the philosophy to accommodate sense gratification. ‘Well, I used to be fired up, but I just don't feel as fired up now. So now the new philosophy should be that, therefore our movement should be adjusted to accommodate me.’

We can give all respect, appreciation, and encouragement, but why should we adjust the movement? The movement was set up by Prabhupada. Why do we have to adjust it now? He's the Founder-Acarya. He founded this movement the way he wanted it. If people don't like it, then they can found their own movement. Why do they have to change this movement? This is Prabhupada’s movement.

GBC means watchdog, and we bark when someone gets too close. Prabhupada told me, ‘Your business is that you stand outside the door of this house and when anybody tries to change anything, start barking.’ So that's what I do wherever I go. That's the order I got from Prabhupada. People don't like barking dogs. They want a dog that wags its tail, licks you. What is the use of that? Everybody knows if you have a guard dog that's like that, he can't protect the master at all. If the dog recognises…he knows who should be allowed, and who you don't bark to. But if someone is not coming in the right way, then he barks.

So, if you think that this is too hard line, I think that it's not too hard line because the whole disciplic succession - Krishna said - was lost on account of this point. Therefore, Krishna said, ‘I have to teach this again to Arjuna because everything got lost.’ So, what else are we supposed to do except preserve the legacy that Prabhupada gave us?

Everyone can be accommodated in the house that Prabhupada built. But there are different rooms. Everybody doesn't get accommodated in the same room. There are many rooms. So, let's at least acknowledge that there are many rooms, and those who are in one room should acknowledge that ‘I'm in one room and you're in another room.’ If there's a difference in the rooms, we can admit to that.

We're not a classless society. We don't preach classless society. That's why I said if someone is more renounced, or detached, or advanced, the less detached or renounced or advanced devotee should show that person respect and pray, ‘Please bless me so that I can also develop.’ Not that you become envious, or bewildered, or ignorant and think ‘It's all the same. I don't see any difference.’

That kind of thing goes on today: classless society. People have become so disrespectful, distrustful, and disappointed. But in disappointment, if you lose your respect, what will happen?

Disciple 1: Sometimes, authorities become bewildered…

TKG: Sometimes, authorities become bewildered, okay.

Disciple 1: (inaudible).

TKG: But generally, they don't become bewildered. Generally, the authorities are less likely to become bewildered than the followers of the authorities. So, in terms of percentage, the authorities are less bewildered. So, we think that ‘Since the authorities may become bewildered, I have to be my own authority.’ But we have a bigger chance of becoming bewildered than the authority. Why is someone an authority? He's authorised. If there's a check and balance system, if the authority becomes bewildered, the person over him will correct them.

Anarchy means where you lose faith in authority, and you take authority into your own hands. That's called anarchy. Now I don't think that's the system that we recommend. An anarchist thinks like this ‘I want to do the following thing.’ Well, who authorised you to do this thing? That's the next question that the law-abiding people should ask. ‘Well, who authorised this? Did the GBC authorise this?’ ‘Well, no, Prabhupada’s books authorised it.’ ‘But the GBC didn't authorise it?’ ‘No Prabhupada’s books authorised it.’ But did the GBC confirm that you're understanding correctly what Prabhupada’s books say, and that it fits in with the plan right now that should be done? ‘Well, I don't know about that.’ That means you don't accept the GBC.

Now, what did Prabhupada say? He said in the direction of management that the GBC are my direct representatives, and, in my absence, they will be the executives of my will. He taught us to work under a GBC, under a temple president structure. So now somehow people think, ‘Oh we don't need that system. It doesn't work anyway. The GBCs are in maya, temple presidents are in maya. We'll create our own system.’

Watch the fun, that's all I can say. Watch the fun as it happens, and we'll see how much Krishna consciousness spreads also. Book distribution will stop, prasadam distribution will stop, Harinama Sankirtana will stop, and then everybody will all fight with each other anyway.

But in the meantime, so many people will become confused, bewildered and lost.

We should have everything we do authorised. It should be authorised by someone. Who's the authority? Just like in China, when you meet someone, they don't ask you what your name is, they ask you, ‘What unit do you work for?’ In China, everybody has a unit, an identity through a working unit; it's the government company. They don't care who you are. They want to know who you work for. ‘Who is your authority?’ That's all they ask first, ‘Who's your authority?’ When you're not under authority, there's big trouble. Anyone who's not got a unit is in big trouble, very big trouble.

So actually, the system is the first thing when you meet someone, it's supposed to be my name is so-and-so, the son of such-and-such. You look in India at all identities, how did the person identify? In fact, the name was like that. Isn't it? How does it work? Do you know that system?

Disciple 2: It’s usually the father's name…

TKG: It's not just a family name.

Disciple 2: the father's name, his first name…

TKG: Say it again, please?

Disciple 2: Well, just like my name, Ashok. My father's name is Jaya Rama.

TKG: What was your father's name?

Disciple 2: Jaya Rama.

TKG: Okay, Jaya Rama.

Disciple 2: Ashok Jaya Rama Patel. Patel is a particular part of Gujarat where people live.

TKG: So, you took the father's name, it comes in your name also, so that when they identify the son, they immediately identify him in terms of his father.  

Similarly, when you identify the disciple, you should identify in terms of the guru. Then in ISKCON also, ‘What temple do you come from? What's your unit?’ Because you're supposed to be authorised. That is the way Prabhupada created this movement. It's only because people fell away, gurus fell away, the people lost their faith, and now everybody is just going berserk. Not everybody, but a few people.

Anyway, I pray that we could control our minds, and our desires, and our senses, and just learn to be nice, submissive, humble, meek, and all the nice qualities, and allow ourselves to have persons over us. Take shelter. That's my prayer to everybody.

 

PART 2 (3.6.1993)

Disciple 3: Guru Maharaja, I'm trying to understand, just like it says in the Bhagavatam that you can't move your arm without the demigods' sanctioning; that you can't breathe, you can't do so many different things. It seems as though it's a prerequisite for surrender that you understand that you are controlled…

TKG: Yes. This is a very good question. You always ask very good questions. He does ask very good questions. I always see that.

So, this question is very good, and there's a very easy solution to this, which is that one should place oneself firmly under the control of the guru. And even better, under the control of the temple president. This is such a good point that we are so completely controlled. So, the best way to become controlled is to get immediate control. You see long distance control leaves a lot of slack, but close-up control is much more control. So, the best thing is that everybody should work under the temple president. That control will then be felt - and also, under the guru. One should feel oneself to be controlled by one's guru and the temple president. So that's really practical, I think. It's such a simple point. Srila Prabhupada actually set it up this way.

You know, in other religions, they have this also. The Buddhists - I forget what they call their organisation - but it's written right into their scripture that the organisation itself is part of the spiritual process: that fealty, loyalty, and discipline within the organisation are themselves part of the actual process. The Catholic Church has the same thing. They wrote it right into the scriptures, so to speak.

Prabhupada, being the Founder of ISKCON and the writer of all of these literatures, he actually wrote it into the very process of Krishna consciousness. That's why you'll see statements in Prabhupada’s books like you can't be Krishna conscious outside of ISKCON. It's a very heavy statement, and it really frustrates people who don't want to work within the society. It's a very problematic statement for them, but there's a reason for it. The fact is that unless we do have some immediate authorities over us, the tendency is to think ourselves independent, and for the mind to start speculating, for desires to come out and not be checked, and to justify these desires as being spiritual. But as soon as you have to work with others, and especially under others, then everything becomes scrutinised. If we're actually wanting to please Krishna, why should we be afraid? The fear is that my independence will be taken away from me.

Krishna is supremely independent, and we are all parts and parcels of Krishna, which means we all have a desire to be independent. The solution is that when you become totally dependent on Krishna, then Krishna gives you full independence to do whatever you want, because you've proven your trustworthiness. The problem is that we want that independence before becoming totally dependent. Therefore, what happens? We don't get it. Instead, we become dependent on our minds and intelligence, which means material energy.

Some jewellery fell off Lord Chaitanya, did you see?

There is a problem with those who want to be independent. They have a problem with the philosophy because the philosophy doesn't really facilitate that understanding. It doesn't facilitate their desire.

So, it just seems so much easier to just finally give in, instead of having to wait for old age to make you bow. It seems so much easier to voluntarily accept these points.

‘I was cheated once, and that's why I'm not going to surrender again.’ That's the basic fear. Practically everybody surrenders in the beginning. But on account of so many problems happening in the society, people now feel ‘I just can't trust it: I can't fully surrender’. The problem is that the philosophy dictates that one has to surrender to make advancement.

So, the only solution is that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The principle of surrender remains. The need to find a proper authority remains. All you can say then is I've got to search out such a person. But you can't change the philosophy or the system. Then you won't end up surrendering. You just have to keep looking until you can find someone that you trust. If you don't find anyone, then you have to say, ‘I'm very unfortunate.’

Then obviously the problem is oneself. If someone keeps saying, there is no one worth trusting… I don't think people are so foolish as to say that. They don't say that ‘There's no one worth trusting.’ It's very hard for me to put faith anymore, full faith. Then you have to find out what's the way to again develop the ability to have faith.

So, if a person has this problem, they should take it as the most serious problem. They should work to rectify it.

Some of the solutions are to increase the number of rounds one chants, to worship the Deity, to increase the amount of reading one does, to spend more time in the Dhama. In other words, one should not conduct one's business as usual if that's the problem. One should take it that this is a very serious problem I've developed, and I have to immediately attend to it. I should not put it off for doing business as usual. I should not think, well, it's okay, I'll take care of it gradually. Because the wrong mentality will affect all of one's thinking, and all of one's plans, and all that one does. It will spoil one's chances for success in one's other activities.

So, the problem is that we're impatient and we somehow think that we can skirt the issue, but it can't be skirted. Krishna is just so perceptive. Who are we trying to fool?

 

The questions and answers were transcribed by Rasanandini Dasi, Hare Krishna Melbourne, AU, 28.5.25.

You can hear the full audio files at https://tkgtm.com/listen/listen_1993_MP3.htm.

Watch a video presentation of these questions and answers at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AknhHXIUks&t=498s

For more videos of His Holiness Tamal Krishna Maharaja, go to https://www.youtube.com/@tkgvideolibrary.