Lecture (Dallas, Texas, 11.2.1997): the 25th Anniversary of Goswami's Accepting Sannyasa

nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhu-tale

srimate bhaktivedanta swami iti namine

namas te sarasvati deve gaura vani pracarine

nirvesesa sunyavadi pascatya desa tarine

vancha kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca

patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnavebhyo namo namah

I am offering my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my Spiritual Master His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prahbupada, who has picked me up from this ocean of material misery and situated me in the boat of transcendental knowledge.

Today, we are celebrating the completion of 25 years since the time that Srila Prabhupada awarded me sannyasa.  That was on the same day as the sanpancami day in 1972 in Jaipur - at the Temple of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda, the Deity of Sri Rupa Gosvami.  

For so many years, I did not know exactly which day it was that Prabhupada gave me sannyasa.  I know it was in January, and I knew the approximate date. There was a Pandal program there, organised by ISKCON at the Temple of Radha-Govinda.  But I was not clear about which day it was.  So, Radha Caran Dasa made some inquiries.  I told him to ask a number of devotees who were present there, and one of them, Kausalya Devi, who actually organized that program for Prabhupada, said that it had to be on the last day or next to the last day of the program.  

But I clearly remember it was not the last day because I remember doing something with Srila Prabhupada after his giving me sannyasa.  So, then I concluded that it must be the day before that.  

But then we wrote to Sweden to our calendar makers to send us the calendar from 1972 calculated for the proper time in India of those lunar calendar dates.  And I was so pleased to find out, to realise that the date actually Prabhupada selected to give me sannyasa was this day, the sanpancami day, a very auspicious day: the Appearance Day of Sri Visnupriya, the consort of Lord Caitanya.  It is Sarasvati-puja: a very appropriate day to give someone sannyasa.  

The Goddess Sarasvati is the Goddess of Learning. It is also the appearance and disappearance day of many great vaisnava acaryas: Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami,  Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and Pundarika Vidyanidhi.  So, it is hard to imagine a more auspicious day. 

So many times in the past years I was in Vrndavana, and I always felt that the sanpancami was special.  In Vrndavana, especially at this time of the year, you start to see the yellow flowers from the mustard plants in the fields, and all the fields are very beautiful with these flowers. It is actually a very nice time of the year. So all of this was, of course, clouded over by my ignorance at the time, because I had no idea of the importance of this date. But Prabhupada knew, and he made the perfect arrangement for me.  

He did not give me the sannyasa so easily.  He tested me for quite some time.  When I first determined to take sannyasa, it was actually the indication of godbrothers, who gave me some hint. Prabhupada actually gave the hint to me.  I was sitting with Prabhupada in Calcutta in his room, and he said, "I wish that you could revive your mood that you had in Los Angeles when you were serving me."  So, I was thinking about that for a while, "What does Prabhupada mean?"  I could not understand. Then one of my godbrothers, Bali Mardana, suggested to me that...I kept saying, "What is the difference between now and when I was in Los Angeles?"  And he said that, "Well, one difference is that now you are married.  In Los Angeles, you were a brahmacari." So I think that was the first idea that came to my mind that Prabhupada wants me to take sannyasa.

So when we were in Bombay at that time, we did not have the property at Juhu, so we were in a large building.  It was one of the newest buildings in Bombay.  It was called Akashkanga on Napensi Road (Warden Road, the old name was Warden Road).  We were in a nice part of Bombay, Malabara Hill area, but I think on the seaside.  So, on the seventh floor we had our Temple asrama. I went to Prabhupada one morning, very early in the morning, perhaps it was 3:30-4:00 in the morning, and I said to Srila Prabhupada, "I want to take sannyasa".  At that time Prabhupada did not respond immediately.  He asked why.  Actually I should correct myself.  I did not first say that.  I just came into Prabhupada’s room, and for two or three days, I just sat in Prabhupada’s room early in the morning.  It was very unusual because I didn’t say anything, and Prabhupada didn’t say anything.  

Normally, if you went into Prabhupada’s room, Prabhupada would want to know why you had come into his room, just like anyone would want to know why.  But I did not immediately bring up the topic, and I was silent. I think that Prabhupada could sense what it was that I wanted.  And eventually, I actually told him what it was.  He did not immediately respond favourably to the idea because I was married at the time, and he had to consider how such a young woman as my former wife would be able to look after herself. She is such a young girl.  So, he did not immediately encourage me to take sannyasa.

But I was quite determined once I got the idea in my mind.  I didn’t find married life very helpful to me in India.  There were a number of persons who were sannyasis, and I was the all-India GBC.  At that time, there was only one GBC for India. So I had to coordinate all the activities, including the activities of sannyasis.  Sannyasis are not so inclined to listen to grhasthas.  At least that was what I felt.  

So, it would seem to me that it made sense.  I didn’t have much more thought, except that practically my service would be facilitated.  But I kept up with it.  When we went to Jaipur, I went before the Deity Radha-Govinda, which is a five-thousand-year-old Deity. This is a Deity that Rupa Gosvami excavated from the earth, which had been buried for a long time.  He saw a cow passing milk over a hill, and gradually he had it revealed that the Deity is underneath this earth, and he excavated this Deity.  The Deity was installed by Vrajanatha, the great-grandson of Lord Krsna. So, this Deity is very important to our sampradaya.  It is the abideya-vigraha, the Deity who represents the practice of devotional service, the acceptance of devotional service.

So, when I came to Jaipur and I saw this beautiful Deity of Govinda, I felt that Krsna was giving me shelter, and that I could fully surrender myself to Krsna.  So within my mind, I gave up everything.  I gave up whatever attachments I had to wife and position. Actually, it was not so much that I took sannyasa to be able to order around the sannyasis, because in those days, if you were a sannyasi, you could not simultaneously be a GBC member.  So, I knew that if I took sannyasa, I had to give up being a GBC member.  So, in my mind, taking shelter of Govindadev meant to give up my wife, my position, and simply to take shelter of  Krsna exclusively.  I did this as far as I was able.

So, I took shelter of Radha-Govinda. Once I made this determination, I started to act in a different way. Prabhupada was staying in the Temple compound, and there really weren’t any proper quarters.  But in the corner of the compound of the temple, there was a round room, a very small room, maybe half the size of this room, but in a round shape. It was a type of turret. Prabhupada was staying in that room.  So, all the devotees would come in the morning for darsana.

But I would not go inside that room.  I would only sit at the threshold of the room because I felt that now I was renouncing the position of being a leader, so I didn’t want to sit in the front, where I would normally sit with Prabhupada.  I just sat outside. Prabhupada saw this and so he commented, "Oh, our Tamal Krishna Maharaja is...something, maybe very humble or something."  That was the first time he made any comment like that out loud.  So the devotees got to know something was going on because I was a householder. How could I be Tamal Krishna Maharaja?

So, of course, most of the ladies who were present were married, and they became alarmed on behalf of my former wife.  They became very alarmed, because she was in Bombay and she had not come there.  So they objected, and they made a group (this is described in the Lilamrta). They made a party and went to Prabhupada and requested that this sannyasa idea was not very fair to her.  

So Prabhupada accepted their appeal, and he again requested that I should reconsider, but I was very, very determined.  In fact, I went out and went down into the market, and bought some cloth and had it dyed saffron (laughter).  I even went and got some bamboo (more laughter). It was very heavy because in Northern India, there is no bamboo growing. So, the bamboo was very heavy because it was old bamboo that people used for perhaps drying clothes, for hanging clothes overhead, or who knows what they use it for.  But that was all I had, very heavy bamboo.  And I made a danda. 

So, when Prabhupada went to the program in the Pandal in the evening, during the slide show. There would always be a slide show every evening as part of the program.  Prabhupada would lecture, and there would be a slide show.  So, during the slide show, Prabhupada called me over and he said, "Your wife is very young and she is also my disciple, so I must consider her. So, you should reconsider. In the future (he said something like this), it may be all right."  And I said, "She will not agree now or in the future.  Because a woman will never free her husband to take sannyasa.  So, she is not going to be happy later on or sooner.  Either way she is not going to be happy. But she will not give her permission later any more than she will now.  So, if it is proper to take sannyasa, it might as well be now because the idea of her approving of it is not an issue.  It won’t happen."

So, somehow Prabhupada saw that I was really determined, and he called me to his room that evening, and his secretary, Syamasundara, was there.  He asked Syamasundara what he thought. Syamasundara said, "I think that he should take sannyasa - be allowed to take."  Prabhupada looked at me and said, "Well, you have to have a danda, cloth." I said, "I already have them. Everything is ready" (laughter). Prabhupada smiled (more laughter) and saw that I was quite determined.  So then he decided, "Alright, then it will be." He looked at the dates, I  guess, and decided that it would be on this sanpancami day.

And early in the morning - it was about 6 or so in the morning. There was no audience or anything. Just behind was a big field, a big ground where we had our  Pandal.  The Deity which is now in New York was the Pandal Deity.  Prabhupada had a system that when he would hold a big Pandal program in India, he would get a new Deity of Radha and Krsna, and he would begin the worship of that Deity in the Pandal.  Then he would ship the Deity to some foreign country.  So the Deity that is now in New York was in that Pandal - the Radha-Govinda Deity.

So, in front of that Deity of Radha-Govinda, Prahbupada performed the sannyasa ceremony. It was just Srila Prabhupada sitting there - he did the whole ceremony - and myself. You might have seen there is a photograph, it’s in the book Servant of the Servant.  So, he gave me the name Tamal Krishna Goswami. That was the first time anybody got that title, Goswami.  Prabhupada said, "You have given up a very chaste wife, you have given up your position, so I am giving you this title Goswami.  Just like the Gosvamis gave up their family, position, etc."  And then, of course, he called me to his room and asked me what my program would be. I proposed to Prabhupada that I would travel by foot, walking through India by myself to preach.  

Prabhupada said, "Very good. Go immediately." (Laughter.) But after about an hour, he called me back and he said, "That is not very practical. A sannyasi should have some brahmacari assistants." So he asked me to take some assistants, and we made a party of brahmacari assistants who came with me.  

He sent me on my first preaching engagement to Ahmedabad.  In Ahmedabad he had received one invitation, but he also was invited to go to Africa, so he asked me to go to Ahmedabad on his behalf. I remember the next day after the sannyasa  (or perhaps it was the same day) we were going around the town and a marriage procession came by, big band and everything.  Prabhupada told me, "Don’t look (laughter). Now you cannot look any more." Then he started to chant this mantra.  He gave me this mantra as a sannyasa mantra:

etamsa asthaya paratma-nistham

adhyasitam purvatamair maharsibhih

ahamtarisyami duranta-param

tamo mukundanghri-nisevayaiva.

This was chanted by an Avanti brahmana.  "I shall cross over the insurmountable ocean of nescience, being firmly fixed in the service of the lotus feet of Krsna.  This was approved by the previous acaryas, who were fixed in firm devotion to the Lord, Paramatma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." 

This is the text that appears in the Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila Chapter 3, Text 6. Prabhupada comments that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that of the 64 items required for rendering devotional service, acceptance of the symbolic marks of sannyasa is a regulative principle.  If one accepts the sannyasa order, his main business is to devote his life completely to the service of Mukunda, Krsna.  If one does not completely devote his mind and body to the service of the Lord, he does not actually become a sannyasi. It is not simply a matter of changing dress. Prabhupada quotes  from the Gita (6.1):

anasritahkarma-phalam  karyam karma karoti yah

sa sannyasi ca yogi ca   na niragni na cakriyah

One who works devotedly for the satisfaction of Krsna is a sannyasi.  The dress is not sannyasa, but the attitude of service to Krsna is.

Srila Prabhupada also quotes from the Upadesamrta (text 1). Srila Rupa Goswami’s text advocates that one should accept the tridandi sannyasa order by controlling the six forces.

 vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam   jihva-vegam udaropastha vegam

etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah   sarvam apinam prthivim sa sisyat

"One who can control the forces of speech, mind, anger, belly, tongue, and genitals is known as a goswami and is competent to accept disciples all over the world."

This was the verse that Prabhupada gave to me to repeat. 

It also mentions in the Caitanya-caritamrta, after verse 6, that after accepting the sannyasa order, Lord Caitanya decided to go to Vrndavana and engage himself wholly and solely in the service of Mukunda in a solitary place.  We know that Lord Caitanya was also engaged in many other activities, but this describes, during his going en route to Vrndavana, what took place. Of course, we know that he was brought back to the house of Advaita Acarya by Nityananda Prabhu.  He went into an ecstatic trance, and he mistook the Ganges for the Yamuna. Nityananda encouraged him this way and brought him back, because Lord Nityananda knew that the devotees would feel the separation from Lord Caitanya too much.  So they all got to have a darsana again.

So this is the history of how I took sannyasa. Of course, about nine months afterwards Prabhupada again asked me to accept the service of being the GBC because there was no suitable replacement. So I had to perform both functions.  But originally he intended that the two functions should be separate: sannyasa and GBC, because GBC requires a lot of management, and a sannyasi especially should be free - according to Prabhupada - to travel and preach, and see to the spiritual welfare of the devotees and the societ,y and to suggest to the GBC where new temples could be opened.

So, I have tried to serve Srila Prabhupada through this sannyasa.  Sannyasa is only accepted amongst the vaisnavas for increasing service to the guru.  It is not necessary otherwise, taking sannyasa as a regulative principle.  The purpose is that, by freeing oneself of other responsibilities, then one can actually increase one's service to the spiritual master.  Therefore I took sannyasa.  

I think that actually it is a fact that, because I was a sannyasi, I could serve Prabhupada in many different places in the world.  I was not entangled by any family responsibilities. 

Of course, I still feel totally unworthy of the title Prabhupada gave me "Goswami."  I am very imperfect in controlling the various vegams that I see. That awarding of that title by Prabhupada was something for me to try to achieve, and I am always striving to do so.  I don’t see the position of sannyasa so much as...of course a sannyasi is the guru of the varnasrama asramas.  

But I especially see it in the form of being a disciple.  That is why I wanted to have this program here.  Because I thought it was appropriate, since whatever I am as a sannyasi is 100% due to Prabhupada. He gave me the title, he taught me, he accepted me into this asrama, he taught me what this asrama means, he encourages and inspires me to live up to the vows of this asrama, and he is the goal for me of this asrama.  So, I thought that it is appropriate to have this ceremony before Srila Prabhupada.  I thought for your sake...all of you also it is, because a sannyasa is a guru and the guru represents the sampradaya.  

So, I think that it is appropriate that, even if you worship the sannyasi on his sannyasa anniversary day, it is appropriate that the previous acaryas who are all here - Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and of course, Srila Prabhupada, will be very pleased that the devotees are worshipping the spiritual master in disciplic succession, and - through his worship - they are worshipping all of the members of the sampradaya.

I thought that a few of you could speak on the subject in a personal sense, of how my sannyasa has affected your lives.  In what way has it affected your lives? Not just myself, but myself as a sannyasi - that role and how it might have affected you in particular. Maybe some of you have thought of something to say.  I asked Durasaya to contact people and have them think about this. 

Caitanya Candra, maybe you can say something?         

Caitanya Candra: I was thinking that when I first came to the temple, it was by the mercy of a very nice devotee, Kesava Dasa, who was encouraging me to come to the Radha-Damodara bus (I was in California). This was after he had encouraged me to follow the four regulative principles, chant rounds. At that time, I was actually able to read Bhagavad-gita by Krishna’s mercy.  

Before I was chanting I couldn’t read it.  It was inaccessible to me at that point.  When I started chanting, it was.  I wanted to join the movement, and I didn’t know anything about it.  I knew the philosophy was perfect.  So I wanted to see for myself if there was some example of that philosophy being lived.  So, Kesava invited me to San Francisco. 

There was a huge garage, and we had one bus parked there and some vans (at least the Volkswagen van was there).  So when I walked in (Kesava had picked me up at the airport) and I came to the temple, the first thing I think he brought me to was the garage.  I got to see the brahmacaris and Tamal Krishna Goswami and Visnujana Maharaja.  Just by seeing them I could understand they were very blissful and there was no question in my mind at that point whether these persons are living the philosophy - it was very, very obvious. 

So, that was a very strong point, to see a big party of renounced persons who were really absorbed.  That was extremely inspirational.  My first experience was that was like "It’s happening, so now I know I can join."  Kesava took me to Los Angeles; he brought me back to my home.  

We didn’t tell you, we left in the middle of the night at twelve o’clock (Caitanya Candra laughing).  We went to my house and sold all my stuff and got rid of all my stuff.  I shaved my head, and I went and showed all my friends. They all thought I was going crazy.  I said, "You’re all crazy, so who cares."  

Then we went to Los Angeles to see Prabhupada, and when we drove up there Tamal Krishna Goswami was happy to see me there with Kesava, but he warned me.  He said, "You should watch out, Kesava is real passionate. Be careful."  He immediately started to get me on track a little bit.  

By your mercy - actually, in Los Angeles there was one big room  where I think all the sannyasis took prasadam together after Prabhupada ate.  But I came up right after you were done, so I got to eat all the sannyasis and Prabhupada’s remnants everyday during the time that I was there.  That was really special.  Then, when we were going to go back to San Francisco, you were going to drive with me in my car.  The car wasn’t really that good.  It was by Krishna’s arrangement that you decided not to ride in my car all the way back to San Francisco.  The car broke down  a few times on the way, and I was thinking "Krsna, Oh God, I’m glad he didn’t come with me. It would have been such a terrible inconvenience."  

Anyway, I was very impressed by the examples of the devotees, especially Tamal Krishna Maharaja.  When I got back, I was one of the bhaktas on the bhakta program, and Gurudeva and Visnujana Maharaja were the bhakta leaders.  So that was a real inspiration: all the wonderful classes and the training.  

I used to chant really, really slow.  You used to ask me, "How many rounds have you done?"  I used to say "This many." You would say,  "You chant way too slow."  You would always get on my case, because I was really puffed up: I still am.  You are always like, giving me nice nudges to try and improve, and that was real inspirational.  

Then, of course, we finally left San Francisco to go to Denver, because Prabhupada was going to Denver.  I can’t remember where it was when you told me - it may have been in Chicago – but you just told me "You’re going to take initiation."  I had only joined one month earlier.  So that was kind of unusual - there were even people who were there for two weeks. I didn’t exactly know: I was there for one month.  You told me "Now you’re going to take initiation."  I’m very grateful for that.

Srila Gurudeva: Will some other person speak?  Prajapati, you said that you got news of the sannyasa ceremony?

Prajapati: We were sitting in the prasadam room of the previous Dallas Temple on Turtle Creek Avenue, and the news came, "Oh, Prabhupada has awarded goswami. Everybody was very, very impressed, "Goswami".  There were other sannyasis, but this was the first time a goswami."

Srila Gurudeva: You were here in Dallas at the time you heard that?

Prajapati: But I think that Caitanya had the good fortune to have your association.  In those days, I didn’t have your association.  It was an inspirational thing when it was mentioned to me by Durasaya that I should think about it: your sannyasa and what it has meant to me.  So many of our godbrothers took sannyasa but were not able to maintain it.  The fact that, at least, there is one success means that it is possible.

Srila Gurudeva: Yes. Well, I think that it seems to me that the important principle to be understood is that one of the things that characterises Vedic culture is that people are very dutiful.  If they give their word, they keep their word.  A person’s word is everything. We see that Lord Rama was willing to go into exile into the forest for so many years just to keep his father’s word.  

So, once we have given our word, we should not break it.  So, I made a promise to Prabhupada and to the Supreme Lord, and I feel that to keep that promise intact is so important.  Of course, it has become more and more important, because over the years so many persons have depended on my keeping that word.  

I recall that after the sannyasa ceremony, I had very good fortune that when I came in front of the Deity of Radha-Govinda, Rupa Goswami’s Deity, the pujaris came, and they took so many garlands from the Deity’s neck and they put the garlands on me.  The news spread all over the city.  In Jaipur about thirty thousand people come everyday to see Radha-Govinda. So everybody heard that the new, white sannyasi is there.  They became very excited, and so many people came and gave me blessings.  So I felt that was very, very auspicious that the Deity garlands... Radha-Govinda and Rupa Gosvami were blessing me, and the people, the devotees of Radha-Govinda, were blessing me also.

Prajapati: I remember in New York on 55th Street, my little children Srimad-Bhagavatam and Sanatana looked up to you so much that they wanted to dress up like sannyasis.

Srila  Gurudeva: They did dress up.  They would walk around with little mini-dandas and dress like the sannyasis.  They would walk around the Temple.  And, I guess one would even call themselves by my name and the other one by Visnujana’s, "I’m So-and-So".

Srila Gurudeva: Another realisation?  I don’t know who Durasaya spoke with."

Nandini devi dasi: When we first came to the Temple, it was Janmastami. Shortly after, you arranged a darsana for my husband and me to come to see you.  I remember that I felt that I didn’t have any clothes to wear. I felt that I should go and I went out and bought this Indian hippie dress and a chaddar to go with the outfit.  I remember then, how when we were sitting on the floor, I was just amazed at how effulgent you seemed, and how so kindly and so lovingly you spoke to us.  That has always inspired me.  I am such a nonsense that your effulgence burns in my heart, and is an inspiration when I am out in the world.  

I just attended a funeral, and when the priest spoke, his words were so pale.  I feel so blessed by the strength, the purity and pristine consciousness that you’ve given us.

Srila Gurudeva: I think that there is an advantage to sannyasa in a sense that a sannyasi is an inspiration to the brahmacaris and helpful to the householders, because householders by nature are entangled by the very nature of householder life.  Because a sannyasi has no such attachment, he can look after and encourage so many householders. 

We know the example of Sanatana Gosvami, who used to go throughout Vraja, and everyone in Vraja knew him as bhara gosvami. He would ask the people in the villages (he knew them by their first names), he would inquire of their families, "Did your daughter get married? How is your son? How is your old mother?" So many personal concerns.  He would look after the people with personal concern.  So, I think it is an advantage to a community that there is a sannyasi residing there, because he can just encourage everyone.  I don’t know how far the householders encourage each other.  But I like to call different people on the phone - if they have phones (laughter) - and just ask little questions and say a few words.  It is helpful, so I think that there is some benefit.

Caitanya Candra: I also wanted to add the time when Srila Prabhupada’s books were coming out. The Bhagavatams were coming out with the Radha-Damodara Party - we used to have these big meetings at different times before marathons, and the special purpose of the meetings was that you were going to be there to preach to all the brahmacaris and inspire them more. And we heard so much news from Prabhupada. That was always the big nectar thing, because we were going to go to a place where we were going to have a big festival, where Tamal Krishna Goswami was going to tell us what Prabhupada says about everything.  We were always eager to have this news, what Prabhupada says.  So, that was also an amazing inspiration at that time.  All the books were coming out, and we were distributing so many books. Preaching was the mood of actually trying to please Prabhupada and trying to deliver the conditioned souls. 

The whole mood of sannyasa is compassionate, and that mood was very strongly developed in the devotees in the Radha-Damodara Party who associated with book distributors. I think that the mood and the determination to preach that you conveyed in order to deliver the conditioned souls was the foundation for so many very strong devotees' spiritual lives in America. They became so serious to preach, and they became empowered by Lord Caitanya, and got so much faith in Prabhupada’s instructions.

Srila Gurudeva: Durasaya, you have something to say?

Durasaya: I was thinking about what you were saying about encouraging householders and all the devotees.  Because, in a sense, we are all sannyasis -  in the sense that we are all trying to give up sense gratification.  We are all in different degrees of sannyasa: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and when we’re all situated in our particular degree of renunciation, it is very helpful to have someone around who has gone the full hundred percent, to the full degree, as an example.  

That example is important, because without it we could lose sight of the goal and make so many mistakes.  For instance, I could become complacent and think maybe I was renounced enough.  But with your renounced example there, that would be impossible.  Or perhaps I could think that some other bogus person was a sannyasi.  With your example there, that also would be impossible.  I could even think myself to be a sannyasi.  Or I could compare myself to someone absorbed in sense gratification, and make the mistake of thinking he is happier than I am, that I had made a mistake by becoming a devotee.  That’s also not possible with your example.  

One time, Srila Prabhupada said to you - after you had mentioned after a program you were appreciating how everyone was so appreciative of him - "It’s because I have given up sex life."

Srila Gurudeva: The Delhi Pandal: thousands of people were bowing down to Prabhupada. Then he said that.

Durasaya: So, this material world moves on sex life, and to reestablish one’s self in the spiritual world means to give up sex life.  Along with Prabhupada’s own admission about that, he also said that purity is the force.  Actually, the force by which he was able to establish this movement all over the world came from that purity of his, which is based on his strict renunciation of the material world.  I would also say the force by which you have been able to establish Prabhupada’s movement here in Dallas, and in so many other places in the world - all these buildings, all these devotees, this restaurant, the preaching - in that sense it’s also based on your renunciation.  So in that sense, when you ask us how your sannyasa has affected us, I would say it would be very difficult to understand where we would all be without it.    

Srila Gurudeva: Mathuranatha, anything to say?

Mathuranatha:  I remember back in the middle of the late 70s I was attracted to the philosophy of Krishna consciousness. I was reading this article in Back to Godhead about sannyasa. I was fortunate enough to go to Gita-Nagari, and you were the first sannyasi I had ever met.  Even then, you were instructing me on householder life, and actually encouraged me to move to Gita-Nagari.  

So, I remember coming back and telling Lila, and she wouldn’t say anything.  She said, "Write me when you get there."  So, gradually we had many devotees come through. A lot of brahmacaris would come through.  I remember on one occasion, they called us and said, "We’re having a couple of brahmacaris coming through, can they stay at your house for Christmas." They were having a Christmas marathon. The next day, twelve brahmacaris showed up. So, you came through with your entourage.  Of course, we were fortunate to have you stay at our house for about three or four days, and you were giving classes.  

It was the first time Lila had ever met someone like yourself who was completely detached, a real spiritual person, and you were so nice to her, you preached to her so nicely.  It was a real turning point in her life.  At that time she started to actually practice Krishna consciousness.  I think that it was only because of that we were able to nicely uproot and actually sell our house and move here.  

I also remember that Radhanatha lived right next door to me. You went to his house and Nanda-priya locked herself in the bathroom. (She’ll probably kill me for telling that.)  Now she is the nice devotee that she is, and that’s because of you.

Srila Gurudeva: I think that most of you in household life have to consider that one day you will take sannyasa.  I don’t think that every devotee who is a householder can take sannyasa, unless someone is actually by nature brahminical.  It is not advisable.  It is better to be a vanasprastha. 

Those who are vaisyas should be vanaprasthas. ONe who has a vaisya nature should be a vanaprastha.  But a sannyasi has to be a brahmana.  It he is not brahminical then it becomes very problematic to maintain sannyasa.  

Certainly, everyone has to be renounced: whether you are vanaprastha one day or a sannyasa.  So, you are all moving in that direction.  Just the very process of vairaghya-vidya - Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s process - draws one towards vairaghya, renunciation, through knowledge, vidya.  

So, this system is set up where you will become detached and renounced automatically, if you follow the process nicely.  Of course, the purpose of that detachment and renunciation is to increase one’s service. The result of increasing one’s service is that you become attached to Krishna. The whole point is to develop love for Krishna.  We cannot love Krishna if we love this material world.  At the same time, we are told to use things in this world for the service of Krishna.  So, we have to learn not to be the enjoyers of these things, but to use everything in the service of Krishna.

Srila Gurudeva: Does anyone have some further thoughts?  Salagram?

Salagram:  Srila Gurudeva, I think that I am in a fortunate position in one sense, because I was in the brahmacari asrama for quite a few years, and now I’m in the grhastha asrama.  I think that one thing that everyone really is saying and feeling is that, regarding your sannyasa, it would be difficult for anyone to see you in any other way.

Srila Gurudeva: It would be difficult for me to be any other way?

Salagram: Therefore, when we start trying to speak about what it means, it would be very difficult to separate all your activities.  I would like to say that the brahmacaris are very fortunate to have you for their spiritual master, to have your association. This association can take one through difficult years in the grhastha asrama, because it is difficult.

Srila Gurudeva:  Misra Bhagavan, you want to speak?

Misra Bhagavan:  Well, I remember the first time that I saw you was a picture in the Back to Godhead magazine.  It was in 1974. Mother Yasoda was on the cover and inside was an article on the Radha-Damodara Party. I was already in a pretty nice temple. I saw you and Visnujana Maharaja, and you immediately became my boyhood heroes. I  felt that that was really the most happening thing.  

At that time, everyone would advise you to run away from home and hide in different places. You said that I could travel around with you. You were a sannyasi, and you were travelling and taking care of the Radha-Damodara Party. 

I remember talking with your former wife, and she went through a lot of trauma over it. I told her that I thought how it was inconceivable that you could be doing something else other than taking care of the Radha-Damodara Party, and how you taught all of us brahmacaris what it’s all about just to be a brahmacari.  

You also taught quite a few sannyasis what it was all about.  You were getting all the training directly from Prabhupada, and Prabhupada was so pleased and so happy that they could ride on the bus.  You presented him all the men you had trained. Athough you would have been a wonderful householder, what you did as a sannyasi...

Srila Gurudeva:  Now I get the chance to be head of a family without the burden of a wife, children and grandchildren, brothers and sisters.  This is a better way to fulfil the householder dharma: from the position of renunciation, rather than to be directly involved.  And Prabhupada was like that,  the head of the family.

The position to be in, of course, is Prabhupada’s consciousness.  Prabhupada’s consciousness was so elevated that, to him, sannyasa was external. It was an external, superficial thing, practically, in many ways.  In other words, to me, Prabhupada’s characteristic feature is love for Krishna.  And, [then] sannyasa is practically effortless.  But, unless one has that love for Krishna, it is a big effort.   But it was not a big effort for Prabhupada.  I think spreading Krishna Consciousness and this movement was a huge effort.

Prabhupada said to me one time, "I am above these things.  You are a young sannyasi; you must be careful."  He said, "But I am an old man; these things do not affect me." Generally, sannyasa is not given to young people. There has been a history of young sannyasis in the sampradayas, but no doubt with the Western mentality, our policy to give sannyasa when someone gets older is a wiser policy, so that we can avoid the various problems that occur.

Karttikeya:  I want to say that it seems that for you it is effortless.

Srila Gurudeva: No, it is not effortless.  Actually, for a very long time I thought I would meditate on the point about how I am a sannyasi, and I tried to do so many things that a sannyasi should do.  

The circumstances I am in now make it look effortless, because I cannot do the things that a sannyasi normally does.  I cannot travel constantly now. When I am in the school there are so many young ladies there. When I associate with the householders here, they have little children.  So I find that I have to somehow try to be transcendental in all of these circumstances.  I just try to relate as  a devotee.  I mean, if I think I am a sannyasi then I won’t go so easily into the school, I won’t go so easily into the householder's home, I won’t play with the little children. So, I don’t think so much like I used to think. I just think that I am Krishna’s devotee and they are devotees. They are conditioned souls that need to be helped.  In that sense you can become transcendental and it becomes a little less of an effort (apparently). It is a different way of dealing with it, and maybe it is a better way.

But you have to you have to be careful because - Prabhupada wrote me in a letter -  "You cannot dove-tail sense gratification in the name of Krishna Consciousness." So, one has to be very cautious not to do things which are sense gratification thinking this is Krishna Consciousness.  It is a very fine line if you’re on the right side of it.  But I think that if we see that the whole community is a big family, then everybody can play their respective role.  A brahmacari can think I don’t need to get married, there are already so many people who are married.  And the householders can think the brahmacaris are our sons, we have to look after them.  Or, we can all think the brahmacarinis need to get married, we have to find nice husbands for them.  We can look at the little children and think these are my younger brothers or sisters, or nephews or nieces, or grandchildren or whatever.  

If we have a vision like that, that’s a very nice vision of a large family.  That’s a vision of a community.  Then you don’t have to feel so agitated, "Oh, I need to get married."  You don’t need to get married; there are already plenty of people who are married.  A brahmacari does not have to think he has to get married because there are already plenty of married people.  If we identify with the community, then we can play a role in the community rather than just identifying with myself and my senses.  We can think, "What does this community need of me?"

So, in that sense I try to play my role as part of the community, and then the sannyasa is much easier. Otherwise, if I start remembering that I am a sannyasi, then I cannot do practically any of the things that I do.  I would never go to school as a sannyasi. In this condition, it is too unfavorable. In so many ways, everything about it is unfavorable.  But if I look at it in the right way, everything about it is favorable.  It is according to how I see it.  From the strict rules and regulations point of view of what the scriptures say a sannyasi should and should not do, it is not a good idea.  But, from the principle of preaching and overall strategy, things of this sort, then it can be done, for a higher cause.

So, I think that people should identify themselves within the context of the whole community, seeing yourself as part of this community.  That will give you a lot of strength.  Because we all want to be part of a family.  There are some people who are like hermits.  But for people who are social - and humans are social creatures - then being with others is very nice. I think that it is very good that people can feel that way.  The brahmacari does not have to feel, "Oh, this is all maya."  How can someone else who is part of your family be maya?  They can think they have their part  to play and I have mine. But if they start thinking "Maya", then that’s on the bodily platform.

Srila Gurudeva: Radha Krishna you have something to say?  Some realisations?

Radha Krishna:  I guess that the first time I met you was in Hong Kong in October 1987, the year when the Hong Kong temple was opened.  That was the time when the stock market crashed.

Srila Gurudeva:  What was that?

Caitanya Candra: Ha! Ha! The Stock Market crashed.

Radha Krishna:  I remember that you would go for morning walks near the harbour, and all the devotees would be walking and running behind you.

Srila Gurudeva:  Yes.  That was the Hong Kong Harbour.

Radha Krishna:  One time, you invited my brother and me to go for a walk.  We walked along the harbour for some time, and you never said anything.  We just chanted.  When we came back, you turned around and asked me, "So, what do you think?"  I remember saying that it was okay and that I liked what I was seeing.  Later on, you called me up to your room with my brother. I clearly remember that the first thing you asked me was what I thought about family life.  I said it was hellish.  You said, "That’s right!" (Laughter.) That made me think about it a lot, and I have since then maintained what you have said.

Srila Gurudeva: Prabhupada also asked me the same question the first time I talked to him privately. He said, “What is your decision about whether you want to remain a brahmacari or get married?” I said, “I will remain a brahmacari.”  Then I did not keep my determination.  But Prabhupada pulled me out of household life very quickly, in less than two years.  That was not very long.  

He asked me that question the first time I ever spoke to him personally: "Will you be married or not?" He wanted to know.  As soon as I said no, he said, "Because there is a 75% chance that if you are married, you will not get out of the material world."  If I said yes, he probably wouldn’t have said that (laughter).  But because I said that, he told me, "75% chance you will not get out of the material world".  

But 25% is a pretty good chance.  You just have to make sure you are in that 25% category.  Not that there is any guarantee for a sannyasa or a brahmacari. In other words, how many people remain sannyasi or brahmacari also?  Very few.  So, ultimately, the asrama has to be suitable for the individual.  The varna and the asrama have to be suitable.